Carry in a shopping mall?

[melensdad]

We have a large enclosed mall in Merrillville/Hobart called the Westfield Shopping Center (used to be called Southlake Mall). I have gone into the mall through several entrances and I have NOT seen any signs on the doors posted against carrying guns. A friend of mine told me that inside the mall there is a small sign that forbid the carrying of weapons. I have not found it.

I realize that if someone with a carry permit is asked to leave then he/she must leave a public establishment regardless of if there are signs.

But what if they have a sign back in the "office area" of the mall where the public rarely goes, then is it the fault of the gun owner who carries into the mall?

I guess my question is, if a property owner does not want guns on the property then HOW MUCH RESPONSIBILITY lies with the property owner to post signs at ALL the entry points? Or is it enough to simply have the policy in their company handbook, or posted in an out of the way spot where the public typically cannot find the policy?

 

[Scutter01]

All they can do is ask you to leave. In Indiana the signs have no force of law behind them, so it's irrelevant whether it's posted or not.

 

[melensdad]

All they can do is ask you to leave. In Indiana the signs have no force of law behind them, so it's irrelevant whether it's posted or not.

I was under the impression that if we ignore NO FIREARMS signs posted at the entryway to a business then we were potentially guilty of trespass.

 

[kludge]

Indiana Code 35-43-2

The law requires posting at the "main entrance". At an indoor mall there are several "main entrances".

 

[Fenway]

Interesting. Thanks for the link

 

[Prometheus]

I was under the impression that if we ignore NO FIREARMS signs posted at the entryway to a business then we were potentially guilty of trespass.

It is generally understood that signage is not ground for criminal trespass when it comes to 'rules of conduct' in Indiana and many other states including Florida.

Basically the sign saying "no weapons" means jack and diddle.

Should they ask you to leave, you must. Failure to leave when asked by the property owner (of their designee) would then be criminal trespass and you could be punished accordingly.

Also the "easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission". I seriously doubt asking the lackie at the information desk will yield favorable results.

The south lake mall is one of the few places I haven't OC'ed yet. I only go in that place 2-3 times a year so thats probably one reason why.

I HAVE seen someone OC in there once. Actually was dressed preety poorly (crappy t shirt and possibly sweat type pants been several months I don't recall exactly) with a fobus holster and what appeared to be a gLock. No badge. I was across from him in the mall and I crossed over but never caught up I had my kids and we were going to meet up with mom, so I said screw it when we reached our 'stop'. I wanted to talk with him, it was about the time I started OC'ing and I wanted to see how things were going for him..

I might do some OC in there this summer if I have a reason to go in.. maybe go check out dicks or something. We shall see.

 

[indyninja]

its kind of like having no soliciting signs at the front of you neighborhood. it aint stopping em

 

[Paul]

if you conceal it, nobody will ever know...but saying that, you wont have a problem. It has to be posted and even then, they have to ask you to leave.

 

[rkba_net]

Indiana Code 35-43-2

The law requires posting at the "main entrance". At an indoor mall there are several "main entrances".

This law is about TRESPASSING... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FIREARMS... it is about trespassing signs etc etc... NOT no guns, no shoes / shirt signs and so on... No gun signs DO NOT have the force of law in Indiana...

 

[salemons]

Don't rock the boat. If they were really concerned they would have better informed you of their policy. Posting anywhere, even back at the office, might be a liability thing for insurance. I had a small shop in another mall and a lot of the security people knew where to come if they really need firearm assistance.

 

[kludge]

This law is about TRESSPASSING... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FIREARMS... it is about tresspassing signs etc etc... NOT no guns, no shoes / shirt signs and so on... No gun signs DO NOT have the force of law in Indiana...

Perhaps not, and I'm not arguing your point, but a property owner has the right to set the conditions of entry to his property, and it's his right to press charges... Personally, if he doesn't want me on his proprty with my gun, then I don't have to support his business... and I don't have the money for a legal defense. Of course it will probably cost him money to press charges too... I'd love to know if there have been any test cases... I don't remember reading about this in Bryan Ciyou's book.

If the businesses I frequent post a sign, then I will write a letter, stating why I won't be doing business there any longer.

 

[skigun75]

Don't rock the boat. If they were really concerned they would have better informed you of their policy. Posting anywhere, even back at the office, might be a liability thing for insurance.

You will have no problems with the mall folks, unless you make a problem. And HPD, if demanded by the mall, might make you leave. No way you get arrested for trespass, for carrying. I never visit without carrying. My wife is not allowed there on Friday and Saturday nights. Carry at the mall is not about if you should, its about what caliber.

 

[Episcopus]

Of course it will probably cost him money to press charges too... I'd love to know if there have been any test cases... I don't remember reading about this in Bryan Ciyou's book.

I just wanted to add that trespass is a criminal matter, so it doesn't cost anything for a property owner to pursue it. All they have to do is report it to the police and file a complaint, then the State takes over.

 

[rkba_net]

Perhaps not, and I'm not arguing your point, but a property owner has the right to set the conditions of entry to his property, and it's his right to press charges... Personally, if he doesn't want me on his proprty with my gun, then I don't have to support his business... and I don't have the money for a legal defense. Of course it will probably cost him money to press charges too... I'd love to know if there have been any test cases... I don't remember reading about this in Bryan Ciyou's book.

If the businesses I frequent post a sign, then I will write a letter, stating why I won't be doing business there any longer.

He does have the right to set conditions... HOWEVER those conditions cannot be in the form of a SIGN in Indiana... he must comunicate those verbally to you... if you then refuse it is criminal trespass...

 

[Ri22o]

He does have the right to set conditions... HOWEVER those conditions cannot be in the form of a SIGN in Indiana... he must communicate those verbally to you... if you then refuse it is criminal trespass...

How would this work at, let's say, the RCA Dome? They have no electronic security and no signage at the facility. I also did not see anything on the back of the tickets regarding firearms on the property. However, hidden on their site in the rules and regulations of the facility (available via their web page) it says that firearms are prohibited. You paid to get in, would they be required to refund your ticket value?

 

[BloodEclipse]

How would this work at, let's say, the RCA Dome? They have no electronic security and no signage at the facility. I also did not see anything on the back of the tickets regarding firearms on the property. However, hidden on their site in the rules and regulations of the facility (available via their web page) it says that firearms are prohibited. You paid to get in, would they be required to refund your ticket value?

I'm pretty sure it has to be listed on the ticket. For events just like the gun show, limits can be placed on your right to carry.

 

[kludge]

He does have the right to set conditions... HOWEVER those conditions cannot be in the form of a SIGN in Indiana... he must comunicate those verbally to you... if you then refuse it is criminal trespass...

(b) A person has been denied entry under subdivision (a)(1) of this section when the person has been denied entry by means of:
(1) personal communication, oral or written; or
(2) posting or exhibiting a notice at the main entrance in a manner that is either prescribed by law or likely to come to the attention of the public.

 

[rkba_net]

(b) A person has been denied entry under subdivision (a)(1) of this section when the person has been denied entry by means of:
(1) personal communication, oral or written; or
(2) posting or exhibiting a notice at the main entrance in a manner that is either prescribed by law or likely to come to the attention of the public.

This thread is getting quite tiring... this law is about TRESPASSING... ie a "No Trespass" sign... IT is NOT ABOUT a sign that says ANYTHING ELSE... ie "No entrance without shirt or shoes"... "No guns" etc etc... this allows one to mark their yard / land as "no trespassing".... it DOES NOT ALLOW FOR ANY ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS. These must be communicated in person and even then no law is broken UNLESS one refuses to leave... then it is criminal trespass.

 

[Robert John Stewart]

How would they know you're carrying if you carry concealed?

 

[rkba_net]

How would they know you're carrying if you carry concealed?

IMHO carrying a handgun concealed is a relative thing...