Christians lets discuss something....

[Rudy]

To believe on Christ is to obey him. Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born of water and of spirit. We are buried with him in baptism. If we believe in Christ we obey his teachings. To simply say I believe without obeying is dead.

Works is the execution (the act of obeying) of being obedient to what we are told to do. Faith without works is dead. The Ethiopian Eunich after hearing the gospel stated "here is water, what hinders me to be baptized?" He acted (works) on what he was told to do.

Rom 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[haldir]

I remember the passage you allude to in James about faith without works being dead. But that wouldn't seem to say the works are the source of our salvation. That is simple faith. Here are a few scriptures that seem to confirm that along with the previously cited one.

Romans 3:23 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galations 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Rudy]

I remember the passage you allude to in James about faith without works being dead. But that wouldn't seem to say the works are the source of our salvation. That is simple faith. Here are a few scriptures that seem to confirm that along with the previously cited one.

Romans 3:23 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galations 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Thanks for the reply--the scriptures shown relate to the works of the Mosaic Law. "for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

In reference to Ephesians 2:9--->
It is not by doing good deeds (works)
1Pe 3:21The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Faith without works is dead, the scripture declares this. The works this speaks of is obedience to the word of God.

 

[jblomenberg16]

To believe on Christ is to obey him. Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born of water and of spirit. We are buried with him in baptism. If we believe in Christ we obey his teachings. To simply say I believe without obeying is dead.

Works is the execution (the act of obeying) of being obedient to what we are told to do. Faith without works is dead. The Ethiopian Eunich after hearing the gospel stated "here is water, what hinders me to be baptized?" He acted (works) on what he was told to do.

Rom 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Lets not forget the Great Commission fellas: Matthew 28:19

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

Baptism is one area of the Christian faith where different denominations have different interpretations of when the correct time is for baptism - as an infant, as a child, as an young adult after a profession of faith.

The important thing is that as Rudy quoted in Romans 6:4.

Why is this important to consider in a thread about Revelation and the End Times? It is important because being baptized is essential to the Christian faith, and that because we do not know the day or the hour, we must continue to keep watch and prepare, both by our own faith, and by bringing others to the faith.

 

[The Meach]

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD


ARTICLE 7


"FROM THENCE HE WILL COME AGAIN TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD"

I. HE WILL COME AGAIN IN GLORY


Christ already reigns through the Church. . .


668 "Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."549 Christ's Ascension into heaven signifies his participation, in his humanity, in God's power and authority. Jesus Christ is Lord: he possesses all power in heaven and on earth. He is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion", for the Father "has put all things under his feet."550 Christ is Lord of the cosmos and of history. In him human history and indeed all creation are "set forth" and transcendently fulfilled.551


669 As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body.552 Taken up to heaven and glorified after he had thus fully accomplished his mission, Christ dwells on earth in his Church. The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, exercises over the Church. "The kingdom of Christ [is] already present in mystery", "on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom".553


670 Since the Ascension God's plan has entered into its fulfillment. We are already at "the last hour".554 "Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect."555 Christ's kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church.556


. . .until all things are subjected to him


671 Though already present in his Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled "with power and great glory" by the King's return to earth.557 This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ's Passover.557 Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God."559 That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ's return by saying to him:560 Marana tha! "Our Lord, come!"561


672 Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel562 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace.563 According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by "distress" and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church564 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.565


The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel


673 Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent,566 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."567. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are "delayed".568


674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",572 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".573


The Church's ultimate trial


675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576


676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578


677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581




* II. TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD


678 Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.582 Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.583 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God's grace as nothing be condemned.584 Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.585 On the Last Day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."586


679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. The Father has given "all judgment to the Son".587 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.588 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.589


IN BRIEF

680 Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ's kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.


681 On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history.

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according

to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.












549 Rom 14:9.
550 Eph 1:20-22.
551 Eph 1:10; cf. 4:10; 1 Cor 15:24,27-28.
552 Cf. Eph 1:22.
553 LG 3; 5; cf. Eph 4:11-13.
554 1 Jn 2:18; cf. 1 Pet 4:7.
555 LG 48 § 3; cf. 1 Cor 10:11.
556 Cf. Mk 16:17-18,20.
557 Lk 21:27; cf. Mt 25:31.
558 Cf. 2 Thess 2:7.
559 LG 48 § 3; cf. 2 Pet 3:13; Rom 8:19-22; 1 Cor 15:28.
560 Cf. 1 Cor 11:26; 2 Pet 3:11-12.
561 1 Cor 16:22; Rev 22:17,20.
562 Cf. Acts 1:6-7.
563 Cf. Isa 11:1-9.
564 Cf. Acts 1:8; 1 Cor 7:26; Eph 5:16; 1 Pet 4:17.
565 Cf. Mt 25:1, 13; Mk 13:33-37; 1 Jn 2:18; 4:3; 1 Tim 4:1.
566 Cf. Rev 22:20.
567 Acts 1:7; Cf. Mk 13:32.
568 Cf. Mt 24:44; 1 Thess 5:2; 2 Thess 2:3-12.
569 Rom 11:20-26; cf. Mt 23:39.
570 Acts 3:19-21.
571 Rom 11:15.
572 Rom 11:12, 25; cf. Lk 21:24.
573 Eph 4:13; 1 Cor 15:28.
574 Cf. Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12.
575 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
576 Cf. 2 Thess 2:4-12; 1 Thess 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18,22.
577 Cf. DS 3839.
578 Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris, condemning the "false mysticism" of this "counterfeit of the redemption of the lowly"; cf. GS 20-21.
579 Cf. Rev 19:1-9.
580 Cf Rev 13:8; 20:7-10; 21:2-4.
581 Cf. Rev 20:12 2 Pet 3:12-13.
582 Cf. Dan 7:10; Joel 3-4; Mal 3:19; Mt 3:7-12.
583 Cf Mk 12:38-40; Lk 12:1-3; Jn 3:20-21; Rom 2:16; 1 Cor 4:5.
584 Cf. Mt 11:20-24; 12:41-42.
585 Cf. Mt 5:22; 7:1-5.
586 Mt 25:40.
587 Jn 5:22; cf. 5:27; Mt 25:31; Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2 Tim 4:1.
588 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
589 Cf. Jn 3:18; 12:48; Mt 12:32; 1 Cor 3:12-15; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31.

 

[dice dealer]

3 Things i do not discuss with anyone ...

Money , religion , and politics ...

Why you ask ?..

Because after i get through telling everyone how wrong they are they are usually mad at me ...

And what i mean by this is ..

I have my opinion of all 3 and noone can change that , and should respect that...

You have your opinion of all 3 and i respect that ...

 

[mudwater]

mudwater, are you a student of Irvin Baxter?

No sorry I never heard of him. They were just ideas I have come up with over the years. When I was younger (1980's) I read alot more, Hal Lindsey mostly but now I focus more on things to do with daily life.

 

[haldir]

Actually this demonstrates one of the things that I actually do like about the Presbyterian Church. They don't believe they have the corner on the truth. We can all have different notions and still respect each other's opinions as we are all beloved children of God.

 

[Rudy]

Actually this demonstrates one of the things that I actually do like about the Presbyterian Church. They don't believe they have the corner on the truth. We can all have different notions and still respect each other's opinions as we are all beloved children of God.

Amen! As brothers and sisters in Christ the world will know who we are in that we love one another.

Respectfully present our beliefs and realize and adhere to the fact the Word of God is sharper than a two edged sword.

No force feeding necessary.

 

[kevinj110]

I think alot of you are missing what god is about by letting religion cloud your view. Sometimes I think people get the wrong idea about god. He knows you loves you. I would say to you maybe listen a bit harder and have a little more faith. You might be suprised what god really planned for you. I guess I really never needed someone to play operator for me between me and god. I like to speak to him directly.

 

[Fletch]

I think alot of you are missing what god is about by letting religion cloud your view. Sometimes I think people get the wrong idea about god. He knows you loves you. I would say to you maybe listen a bit harder and have a little more faith. You might be suprised what god really planned for you. I guess I really never needed someone to play operator for me between me and god. I like to speak to him directly.

You have to remember, a lot of them are Republicans. Republicans like rules.

 

[mettle]

Careful, are froward mouth and a proud look are not something to think one can live with long.

You have to remember, a lot of them are Republicans. Republicans like rules.

 

[Fletch]

Careful, are froward mouth and a proud look are not something to think one can live with long.

I'm sure that meant something to you.

I'm merely making an observation. Culturally speaking, Republicans worship at the altar of Order (as in "Law and..."). Any random sampling of this board, especially the Politics forum, will confirm this. They like rules and structure. It should therefore be utterly unsurprising that they are given to doctrinal disputes and a heavily law-oriented faith. Cultural conservatives tend to gravitate toward conservative institutions, including churches.

 

[mettle]

You claim to biased to not one order, or side. But your hateful comments and bitterness towards republicans is way beyond just political discussion. I can FEEL your vile disregard, you are emotionally motivated by something that goes beyond this political discussion.

Conviction has a way of bringing out the worst of people. And it can also produce the best in us when we submit ourselves to it.

I say you step away from the keyboard a while, begin to search the Word, pray, meditate on the Word and the orientation of your actions, thoughts and deeds in light of it; I think it may sooth something in you that cannot be satisfied by bitter debating on a forum and fighting with the power of the air.

We can sometimes wrestle with conviction and the truth in our life for YEARS; and, never come to the knowledge of it.

Please understand, this is not a political post. This directed at you, from me, hoping that whatever it is in your life that has brought your here, bad or good: that it can be dealt with. You seem SO miserable. PM me, we'll talk. Who cares if you win every conversation; or prove your point with the greatest of words, you are wrestling, and I can tell what it is with.

I'm sure that meant something to you.

I'm merely making an observation. Culturally speaking, Republicans worship at the altar of Order (as in "Law and..."). Any random sampling of this board, especially the Politics forum, will confirm this. They like rules and structure. It should therefore be utterly unsurprising that they are given to doctrinal disputes and a heavily law-oriented faith. Cultural conservatives tend to gravitate toward conservative institutions, including churches.

 

[haldir]

I don't really understand why you are so upset mettle, other than perhaps the barb about your one post not making much sense (which sorry to say, I didn't get either). But I actually think he is probably right to some extent. The Republican party had a large law and order element (of which I probably am to some extent a member of). I also in the past felt pretty strongly about religious dogma. In my younger day, I would have told you that if it wasn't Southern Baptist doctrine you were wrong.

 

[Fletch]

You claim to biased to not one order, or side. But your hateful comments and bitterness towards republicans is way beyond just political discussion. I can FEEL your vile disregard, you are emotionally motivated by something that goes beyond this political discussion.

And I think you're letting your imagination run wild.

I have disagreements with Republicans and Democrats alike. I don't hate either group; I see them for what they are. Every position has weaknesses, even the libertarian stance which I favor. Acknowledging those weaknesses is not hatred. It is no more hateful to say that Republicans love Order than it is to say that 5-year-olds love peanut butter. It is what it is.

Conviction has a way of bringing out the worst of people. And it can also produce the best in us when we submit ourselves to it.

Mkay.

I say you step away from the keyboard a while, begin to search the Word, pray, meditate on the Word and the orientation of your actions, thoughts and deeds in light of it; I think it may sooth something in you that cannot be satisfied by bitter debating on a forum and fighting with the power of the air.

What if I told you that my orientation and actions, thoughts and deeds are a result of searching the Word, praying, and meditating? And who says I need soothing? There was no bitterness in my observation. I just said what should be perfectly obvious to anyone who's paying attention.

What I think is more interesting is the fact that the mere mention of this Order-loving trait has sent you into a tizzy. Clearly you've got some issues of your own to work out.

Please understand, this is not a political post. This directed at you, from me, hoping that whatever it is in your life that has brought your here, bad or good: that it can be dealt with.

Of that I have no doubt.

You seem SO miserable.

If that's what you think, then your powers of perception are really out of whack.

PM me, we'll talk.

How about "no". I do not acknowledge you as being in a position to counsel me, spiritually or otherwise. Even if I did, we would have nothing to talk about on this "issue". I made an observation, that's all. I've already received comments from others who agree that the observation is a fairly accurate one.

Who cares if you win every conversation; or prove your point with the greatest of words, you are wrestling, and I can tell what it is with.

Given that you're under the impression that I'm "miserable", I sincerely doubt you've got any great insight here.

I also wonder why the unending vituperation aimed at Democrats on these forums has not similarly caused you to extend offers of peer counseling to the dozens of Republicans here making such comments. Was there an addendum to some verse in the Bible (perhaps Matthew 5:22?) that says it's OK to hate on Democrats?

For what it's worth, I do appreciate the approach you've taken. The problem is that you're operating from some bad perceptions and assumptions. Go back and read my post again, only this time, hear in your head the voice of an entomologist describing a beetle. "It has a hardened carapace... 3 pairs of legs..." This might help your reaction a bit.

 

[mettle]

Another 'previous forum moderator' response. Well written, well performed; I'm still not convinced. You can blow me off all you want to, and even insert smug comments and publicly humiliate and downplay what I posted... have at it. But, my observations are right on. Bitterness kills the soul, and turns sour any man who thinks it is just a 'drive', into a bound and raging individual.

My offer still stands, I think I can show you some things. PM me, if you are truly sincere enough.

And I think you're letting your imagination run wild.

I have disagreements with Republicans and Democrats alike. I don't hate either group; I see them for what they are. Every position has weaknesses, even the libertarian stance which I favor. Acknowledging those weaknesses is not hatred. It is no more hateful to say that Republicans love Order than it is to say that 5-year-olds love peanut butter. It is what it is.

Mkay.

What if I told you that my orientation and actions, thoughts and deeds are a result of searching the Word, praying, and meditating? And who says I need soothing? There was no bitterness in my observation. I just said what should be perfectly obvious to anyone who's paying attention.

What I think is more interesting is the fact that the mere mention of this Order-loving trait has sent you into a tizzy. Clearly you've got some issues of your own to work out.

Of that I have no doubt.

If that's what you think, then your powers of perception are really out of whack.

How about "no". I do not acknowledge you as being in a position to counsel me, spiritually or otherwise. Even if I did, we would have nothing to talk about on this "issue". I made an observation, that's all. I've already received comments from others who agree that the observation is a fairly accurate one.

Given that you're under the impression that I'm "miserable", I sincerely doubt you've got any great insight here.

I also wonder why the unending vituperation aimed at Democrats on these forums has not similarly caused you to extend offers of peer counseling to the dozens of Republicans here making such comments. Was there an addendum to some verse in the Bible (perhaps Matthew 5:22?) that says it's OK to hate on Democrats?

For what it's worth, I do appreciate the approach you've taken. The problem is that you're operating from some bad perceptions and assumptions. Go back and read my post again, only this time, hear in your head the voice of an entomologist describing a beetle. "It has a hardened carapace... 3 pairs of legs..." This might help your reaction a bit.

 

[haldir]

Perhaps we should all take a deep breath. I avoided this thread for awhile just because these types of discussion usually devolve into a disagreement. But then I couldn't help myself. Remember we are to love each other even our enemies. I would suggest having the discussion over a beer, but....

 

[Fletch]

Another 'previous forum moderator' response. Well written, well performed; I'm still not convinced. You can blow me off all you want to, and even insert smug comments and publicly humiliate and downplay what I posted... have at it.

I see nothing in my post that is intended to humiliate or downplay. I'm just saying that you're wrong.

But, my observations are right on. Bitterness kills the soul, and turns sour any man who thinks it is just a 'drive', into a bound and raging individual.

I will agree that bitterness kills the soul. I still don't know what this has to do with my comments above.

 

[Fletch]

Perhaps we should all take a deep breath. I avoided this thread for awhile just because these types of discussion usually devolve into a disagreement. But then I couldn't help myself. Remember we are to love each other even our enemies. I would suggest having the discussion over a beer, but....

Beer does tend to make people more agreeable.