CIA Torture Report Released

[T.Lex]

You have to hold still.......

Last time you told me that, I couldn't sit for a week.

(Talk about torture...)

 

[Trigger Time]

Actually, sometimes it does.

Probably about the same ratio as torture. Ain't that a kick in the head!?

No it doesn't. Those ****ers lie and laugh right in your face.
interogation works. Like I said before, why does everyone assume that they went straight to being water boarded? It didn't happen like that. They had to be real mother ****ers an not cooperate at all in order to be elevated. The U.S. Doesn't just pull your name out of a hat and say well your up next buddy!! What size nipple clips do you wear? And here is your one sock. Your towel. Your 2 liter bottle

 

[iChokePeople]

I wouldn't begin to take a guess at the RATIOS T.Lex suggested, but absolutely, being nice sometimes works. And just as absolutely, sometimes it doesn't. Every subject is different and talks, or holds out, for different reasons.

 

[T.Lex]

I wouldn't begin to take a guess at the RATIOS T.Lex suggested, but absolutely, being nice sometimes works. And just as absolutely, sometimes it doesn't. Every subject is different and talks, or holds out, for different reasons.

Exactly. People lie with EIT, too. The key to intelligence is multiple sources and multiple data points.

It is FAR too simplistic (for me) to say that torture sometimes provides good information, so we should allow it. Ultimately, I don't think we should take any technique off the table, officially. Of course, I also hope that we wouldn't need or want to engage in EIT.

 

[cobber]

Apparently half the country recently polled don't agree that "torturing" terrorists is a bad thing . . . .

Does that include the 65% who didn't vote in the midterms? What do they think about this?

 

[rambone]

Apparently half the country recently polled don't agree that "torturing" terrorists is a bad thing . . . .

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.” -- Samuel Clemens

 

[halfmileharry]

Jollymon's avatar in 1 eye and printcraft's in the other.

LOL! That's cold man!!

 

[Expat]

Exactly. People lie with EIT, too. The key to intelligence is multiple sources and multiple data points.

It is FAR too simplistic (for me) to say that torture sometimes provides good information, so we should allow it. Ultimately, I don't think we should take any technique off the table, officially. Of course, I also hope that we wouldn't need or want to engage in EIT.

I think the "taking if off the table" is important. I saw part of the Kelly Files interview with the guy that interrogated KSM. He said he knew how long they could waterboard him and he would mock them by counting the seconds off with his fingers. If he had to fear worse methods it might have changed his attitude. I also think it is ironic that KSM warned him that people would turn against him and his methods. I guess the terrorists know us too well.

 

[JollyMon]

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.” -- Samuel Clemens

“Ohh yeah, Dont Stop” ― Jenna Jameson

I can use quotes too. I like my quote more.

 

[mrjarrell]

 

[halfmileharry]

How do we know we don't get good intel using torture?
We're getting a lot of facts and figures from people we surely don't trust at all.
I don't know if anything is real or not. Just what I read or hear on the news. I've been way out of the know on stuff like this for so many years I can't remember how long it was.
Anyway, I don't trust the sob's giving out the figures about EIT any more than I do the sob's doing the EIT.
I'm just glad that IF we have to really mess someone up with cruel and inhumane treatment then I guess these terrorists hell bent on destroying everything but their own faith are good ones to really screw up and be cruel to. I mean...IF we gotta...I mean, I'm hoping it works since we gotta do it and all.

 

[OneShotFOGE]

How do we know we don't get good intel using torture?
We're getting a lot of facts and figures from people we surely don't trust at all.
I don't know if anything is real or not. Just what I read or hear on the news. I've been way out of the know on stuff like this for so many years I can't remember how long it was.
Anyway, I don't trust the sob's giving out the figures about EIT any more than I do the sob's doing the EIT.
I'm just glad that IF we have to really mess someone up with cruel and inhumane treatment then I guess these terrorists hell bent on destroying everything but their own faith are good ones to really screw up and be cruel to. I mean...IF we gotta...I mean, I'm hoping it works since we gotta do it and all.

We dont have to do it though. We have chosen to do it.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Now this is a strong title...

The CIA Didn?t Just Torture, It Experimented on Human Beings | The Nation

 

[cobber]

And am I surprised the people who excuse statism when it results in something they like have their knickers in a twist over this?

Yes. Erm, no.

 

[rambone]

George Washington: Use "humanity" and "compassion" on enemies

Americans were mistreated, malnourished, and brutally tortured by their British captors during the War of Secession in 1775. The reports of barbarous acts of the British came in daily. General George Washington could have returned the favor, but he instead used his "Christian Spirit" to guide America's prosecution of the war the treatment of enemy prisoners and civilians.

Following the Battle of Trenton in Dec. 1776, General George Washington set firm rules for the treatment of prisoners in American custody:
.

"Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands."

-- George Washington, orders to Lt. Col. Samuel Blachley Webb, 8 Jan 1777
​

When invading enemy territory in the north, he rejected the total war approach and required his men to show compassion and avoid violating anyone's "rights." Wait--- foreigners have rights? Imagine.
.

"That you check by every Motive of Duty and Fear of Punishment, every Attempt to plunder or insult any of the Inhabitants of Canada. Should any American Soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any Canadian or Indian, in his Person or Property, I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary Punishment as the Enormity of the Crime may require. Should it extend to Death itself it will not be disproportional to its Guilt at such a Time and in such a Cause: But I hope and trust, that the brave Men who have voluntarily engaged in this Expedition, will be governed by far different Views. that Order, Discipline and Regularity of Behaviour will be as conspicuous, as their Courage and Valour. I also give it in Charge to you to avoid all Disrespect to or Contempt of the Religion of the Country and its Ceremonies. Prudence, Policy, and a true Christian Spirit, will lead us to look with Compassion upon their Errors without insulting them. While we are contending for our own Liberty, we should be very cautious of violating the Rights of Conscience in others, ever considering that God alone is the Judge of the Hearts of Men, and to him only in this Case, they are answerable. Upon the whole, Sir, I beg you to inculcate upon the Officers and Soldiers, the Necessity of preserving the strictest Order during their March through Canada; to represent to them the Shame, Disgrace and Ruin to themselves and Country, if they should by their Conduct, turn the Hearts of our Brethren in Canada against us."

-- George Washington, orders at Campbridge, 14 September 1775
​

As historian David Hackett Fischer wrote in his book, Washington's Crossing, "American leaders believed that it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause... American leaders resolved that the War of Independence would be conducted with respect for human rights, even of the enemy."

Was Washington an America-hating pansy when he ordered that his enemies be treated with "humanity" and "compassion"? I can only imagine that his appeal to morality would be viewed with scorn as a weakness -- or worse: sympathy for the enemy.

John Adams expressed the same sentiments on projecting America's virtues during the war.
.

"I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this -- Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed.''

-- John Adams, letter to Mrs. Adams, 1777
​

Modern Americans seem to disagree, arguing that cruelty is "effective" and "saves lives."

 

[bingley]

Why did the Founding Fathers hate America?

"American leaders believed that it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause..."

There is just no room for this kind of liberal talk. If we don't cavity search everyone at the airport and grope little girls right in front of their parents, the terrorists have already won!

 

[cobber]

Why did the Founding Fathers hate America?

There is just no room for this kind of liberal talk. If we don't cavity search everyone at the airport and grope little girls right in front of their parents, the terrorists have already won!

I'm sure we conducted ourselves admirably against the British, and would do so again today if we faced them in battle. Against Native Americans (non-state actors) not so much, throughout history. They massacred and tortured, and we massacred and tortured in return. At least through Wounded Knee, and then it was off to Gitmo, excuse me, the reservation for the survivors...

Or are we revising our history now to find that the 'horrors' of waterboarding are uniquely 21st century? Well, there is that Sherman's March thing some INGOers were boo-hooing about in another thread. But that wasn't 'real' Americans channeling Washington, but rather corrupt minions of King Lincoln. And the WWII bombing campaigns against German cities (maybe we can blame that on an Italian at least...).

I don't think this line of Pollyannism would fly with Fischer somehow. While we're on the topic, John Dower, War Without Mercy.

 

[bingley]

Or are we revising our history now to find that the 'horrors' of waterboarding are uniquely 21st century?

Exactly! I'm just tired of these pansies who are against torture! It's a highly effective way of managing a population. If the cops could freely torture suspects, there would be no crime! At traffic stops, and nobody would ever "forget to renew" their LTCH. Rednecks who run red lights and endanger everyone? Nothing a bit of waterboarding can't fix! Torture for everybody! Torture now!

 

[ArcadiaGP]

CIA 'mistakenly' destroys copy of 6,700-page US torture report | Americas | News | The Independent

 

[ArcadiaGP]

U.S. must release Abu Ghraib photos, judge says | Reuters