Citizens arrest with a firearm

[linkinpark9812]

I brought up a similar topic before, in the sense that someone felt that their life was endangered, and you pulled your firearm and they immediately gave up, what would you say/do? Holster your firearm? Tell them not to move? citizen arrest?

Based on a case law I have seen in the past, just pointing a loaded firearm at an individual can be considered deadly force, not necessarily firing it.

However, I cam across this recent incident: http://www.dailyjournal.net/ftp/Editorial/reckley-011112.pdf

I will assume you read the whole thing before reading on.

While this was on his property, this attorney has said that in the initial contact, him raising his firearm at the approaching truck that was coming from his house and towards him was justified.

"Whether it was in self defense or to effectuate a legal citizen’s arrest forthe felonies being committed against them, Mr. Reckley had a legal right to raise his firearm and order the felons to stop the truck and get out."

While I am not sure if this is considered a "case law", it was interesting to read. While I believe that your chance of doing this in public is extremely slim, since the circumstances in this situation were unique and on their property, it is interesting how that statement is stated.

Btw, weird that the sheriff's department that wasn't helping them much actually tried to take it to a grand jury for possible charges. I guess I wasn't their so I probably can't make any assumptions on where their reasoning for it came from.

Thoughts?

 

[DKY197]

I can't offer anything to back this up, but it's always been my understanding that citizens can make arrests on felonies only.

 

[w_ADAM_d88]

good question

Good post!

I guess it would depend on the exact circumstances. If my life is in danger and a draw more than likely my edc is going to go bang. However it is my understanding that you can hold someone at gunpoint until help/le arrives. Just be sure that if you were the one that calls 911, describe yourself good to the dispatcher. That way as police arrive they know how to approach you since you have a firearm out.

 

[Maximinus Thrax]

good question

Be extra careful to actually contribute quality posts until you get above 50, otherwise people will think you are padding your posts to get to the classifieds...

Interesting question, I know I would be more hesitant to hold someone at gunpoint in public than I would in or on my own property. It just seems the safer bet to not push the issue if it has been diffused while in public.

I'd always heard that the idea of citizens arrest was more or less dead. I haven't looked into it too much yet...I suppose I probably should. Based on what I read I think I agree with the prosecutor's suggestion of no charges. It seems to me that the Reckley's acted fully within their rights and may have shown more restraint that I would have.

 

[Expat]

I am not drawing my pistol unless I am in fear for my life or the life of another. So if I draw, I am going to shoot the person. If someone needs arrested, I will call the police.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I am not drawing my pistol unless I am in fear for my life or the life of another. So if I draw, I am going to shoot the person. If someone needs arrested, I will call the police.

In my humble opinion, what an absolutely terrible mentality to have.

Do you not know that the mere presentation of a SD weapon will often get compliance / the attack / behavior to cease?

I'm glad I'm not your lawyer.

-J-

 

[Expat]

In my humble opinion, what an absolutely terrible mentality to have.

Do you not know that the mere presentation of a SD weapon will often get compliance / the attack / behavior to cease?

I'm glad I'm not your lawyer.

-J-

So am I.
If someone is coming at me with a knife, gun or other deadly weapon, I have a second to fire perhaps. You think I should chat with him instead?

 

[pleiades]

I am not drawing my pistol unless I am in fear for my life or the life of another. So if I draw, I am going to shoot the person

At the Indiana law seminar in Boone County, this was the overriding thought of the presenters - if you pull, you shoot. I personally think that the presence of a weapon may stop the threat then and there with no need for actually firing the weapon...but I'm still pondering this idea. I do know that these incidents happen so quickly that you pretty much need to react without thought.

 

[Expat]

I think the prosecution of Liberty applies here. If you did not need to shoot, you did not need to pull a firearm and therefore you have committed an illegal act in doing so.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I brought up a similar topic before, in the sense that someone felt that their life was endangered, and you pulled your firearm and they immediately gave up, what would you say/do? Holster your firearm? Tell them not to move? citizen arrest?

When you say "gave up", what do you mean?

Runs away? Raising hands? Stops in place?

While I am not sure if this is considered a "case law", it was interesting to read.

It is not case law. It a memo from the CLEO of Johnson County, the Johnson County Prosecuting Attorney, stating that he is not filing.

Btw, weird that the sheriff's department that wasn't helping them much actually tried to take it to a grand jury for possible charges.

Not weird at all. Sometimes law enforcement disagrees.

So if I draw, I am going to shoot [IF I HAVE TO] the person.

Command presence may win. Positioning may win. Verbal commands may win. A Buick may hit the charging dog and you do not have to shoot.

If there is no other way, do what the reasonable person in those circumstances would need to do. If there is another way, it is far, far cheaper and does not involve prison.

Not everyone will be on board with your claim of self-defense.

http://www.jconline.com/article/20130416/NEWS/304160020/Couple-s-testimony-differs-trial-shooting

 

[CBR1000rr]

In my humble opinion, what an absolutely terrible mentality to have.

Do you not know that the mere presentation of a SD weapon will often get compliance / the attack / behavior to cease?

I'm glad I'm not your lawyer.

-J-

So am I.
If someone is coming at me with a knife, gun or other deadly weapon, I have a second to fire perhaps. You think I should chat with him instead?

I respect your opinions but I understood Expat to be saying that he would only draw hid weapon if there were no other option and the only remaining option to defuse the situation would be to give the perp lead poisoning. I may be wrong but that's what I took from it. Being that as it may, I will have to agree. My weapon is only being brandished if I feel the only option to defend myself or another is to physically stop the individual threatening our lives.

 

[tyrajam]

I am not drawing my pistol unless I am in fear for my life or the life of another. So if I draw, I am going to shoot the person. If someone needs arrested, I will call the police.

I don't think anyone here is advocating drawing on a BG when you don't feel like your life is in danger or when it is not your only option. And I agree that if you are not 100% mentally prepared to pull the trigger there is no way you draw a gun. The moments pause as you try to figure out if you should or should not pull could cost you or your family their lives.
BUT, it is still a very good question. What if as you draw your gun the attacker drops his knife/weapon. What happens when once your gun is out you no longer need o fire? I've read way too many stories of people charged with false imprisonment or criminal confinement or whatever and I don't want to be one of them! So the OP's question is a good one: what do you do, especially in a public place?

 

[Denny347]

Based on a case law I have seen in the past, just pointing a loaded firearm at an individual can be considered deadly force, not necessarily firing it.

If it is found you had no cause to point your firearm then this law will kick in.

IC 35-47-4-3
Pointing firearm at another person
Sec. 3. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting within the scope of the law enforcement officer's official duties or to a person who is justified in using reasonable force against another person under:
(1) IC 35-41-3-2; or
(2) IC 35-41-3-3.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally points a firearm at another person commits a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if the firearm was not loaded.
As added by P.L.296-1995, SEC.2.

But the mere pointing a pistol cannot be deadly force. You must APPLY the force, not just display it.

 

[MolonLabe7]

Obviously it really depends on the situation, but if my life was threatened, I would more than likely shoot, but if I feel that it could be avoided, I would avoid it at all costs. Its always better to not have blood on your hands, even if it is a piece of human debris blood. I carry every day that I can, and I hope to never have to use my gun. Carrying a gun is like a having a parachute, if you don't have one when you need one, then you will probably never need one again.

 

[jerryv]

Everything is a situation.

If someone comes toward me with a gun, if I can draw, they'll get shot.

If someone comes toward me with a knife, I will draw and shoot if they don't stop.

Same with someone who comes toward me in a threatening or menacing manner which causes me to fear for my safety, even if they don't have a weapon. I will draw if I feel a substantial threat. I will shoot if there is no other option.

Self defense.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If someone comes toward me with a gun, if I can draw, they'll get shot.

Memo to self: do not approach Jerry with gun for sale at gun show.

 

[CathyInBlue]

I think there was a missing context of the gun being in hand/at the ready, and the body language saying, "I'm-a $^&% you up, son!" Approaching with neutral body language and the gun being holstered/slung/at port arms would not warrant a lethal force response, but that's just me.

 

[rbMPSH12]

If you did not need to shoot, you did not need to pull a firearm.

This isn't necessarily the case. I read a post on INGO recently from an INGOer who was in a Walmart parking lot and was approached by a thug asking for money with a hand under his shirt (possible gun). So the INGOer drew his gun and the guy took off running, so he didn't shoot. I would say he was justified in drawing his gun, because he had reasonable suspicion that the guy had a gun. However by not shooting immediately he was still able to stop the threat without shooting/killing the guy (always a plus). Now if the thug had actually pulled a gun or was clearly in the process or pulling one, or was rapidly approaching the INGOer in a threatening manner with no clear intention to stop then yes, shoot immediately. At that point your life is clearly in immediate danger. I see this story as kind of a middle area. I don't think we can say "if you draw you should always shoot." That can get you in trouble. I think there's a difference between drawing to shoot to stop an immediate threat and drawing to stop a very probable threat before it starts, with the possibility of shooting if the threat progresses. Maybe he would have been fine in court with "he had his hand under his shirt implying he had a gun," but I don't know. If the threat stops upon your draw, why shoot? The goal is to stop the threat.

 

[linkinpark9812]

This isn't necessarily the case. I read a post on INGO recently from an INGOer who was in a Walmart parking lot and was approached by a thug asking for money with a hand under his shirt (possible gun). So the INGOer drew his gun and the guy took off running, so he didn't shoot. I would say he was justified in drawing his gun, because he had reasonable suspicion that the guy had a gun. However by not shooting immediately he was still able to stop the threat without shooting/killing the guy (always a plus). Now if the thug had actually pulled a gun or was clearly in the process or pulling one, or was rapidly approaching the INGOer in a threatening manner with no clear intention to stop then yes, shoot immediately. At that point your life is clearly in immediate danger. I see this story as kind of a middle area. I don't think we can say "if you draw you should always shoot." That can get you in trouble. I think there's a difference between drawing to shoot to stop an immediate threat and drawing to stop a very probable threat before it starts, with the possibility of shooting if the threat progresses. Maybe he would have been fine in court with "he had his hand under his shirt implying he had a gun," but I don't know. If the threat stops upon your draw, why shoot? The goal is to stop the threat.

I double him saying that he implied he had a gun would hold much water. Unless your friend is a LEO, he is only covered under the self defense/forcible felony/castle doctrine laws AFAIK. LEOs, when acting under their official duties, have a different set of laws (example is the pointing firearm law someone posted, where it exempted LEOs acting within their official duties).

By asking for money, do you mean "do you have some spare change?" or "give me your money". I would say your friend may have made a mistake if he said something similar to the first statement.

Also to the other poster, by "give up", I mean between the time you are pulling your weapon to the time you are in a position to fire, that he is no longer a threat and you do not fear for your life or others, or any forcible felony at that moment, etc.

 

[rbMPSH12]

By asking for money, do you mean "do you have some spare change?" or "give me your money". I would say your friend may have made a mistake if he said something similar to the first statement.

I can't remember exactly what he said on that post or who it was. I'm pretty sure it was more demanding in a threatening manner. If it were just some guy asking for money then no, I don't think he should have drawn. But a guy demanding money with his hand under his shirt could be a little different story. Could you argue for fear of your life? Maybe. Depends on the situation I guess. With my EDC setup I don't think personally I would draw as a first option, though. I carry a Surefire light for such situations where I would probably give a warning and shine the 200 lumens in his eyes and command him to walk away. If he didn't comply and threatened me further then I would consider drawing and command him to stop and leave.

Also, what you said about the applicability of SD/FF/Castle Doctrine and the LEO exemption is helpful.