CNC/Laser cutting/printing

[Reagan40]

I am wanting to find a solution to a problem I have at my business. We use a lot of stencils. All would be the size of a standard 8”x11” piece of paper. The issue is, for them to last awhile, they need to be some type of thin metal. We have some that are brass that we have paid to have made. Many times, we need the stencil right away, and we desire the convenience of making them onsite. The problem is, any cnc/laser printers that cut metal are really expensive. I am looking for a relatively affordable option to cut stencils into thin metal. Is there anyone that has experience with this that can point me in the right direction?

 

[Clay Pigeon]

How precise do you need these to be?

Have you looked into a small plasma cnc table?

PlasmaCAM Cutting Systems

 

[schmart]

My experience is with an X-Carve CNC router. It is not technically designed to cut metal, but many people have done so w/ aluminum. My concern w/ a CNC router for stencils is that it can't cut square inside corners. It will always have the radius of the router bit. Although you can use smaller bits for a smaller radius, that also means it cuts slower and takes longer for the machining operation.

Without knowing anything about your business, I'm wondering if you may be looking at is backwards and rather than length of service, look at least cost per use. If you make a metal stencil and it lasts 1000 uses, but costs $10 to make, would you be better off (or equal) with a plastic type stencil that you only get 10 to 15 uses out of, but only costs 10 cents to make. You can get pretty inexpensive vinyl cutters that cut square inside corners. These could cut either paper card stock for very inexpensive stencils, or plastic at a slightly higher price. You could even start out with something like the cricut hobby cutters that are designed for scrapbooking.

You may still have to outsource some heavily used stencils to get them in metal but you at least would have the quick turnaround desired for immediate use.

Another thought is wondering if screen printing masks would work for you. There is some pretty cool options of using a laser printer and a photo sensitive aerosol coating on the screen. I know that a single screen can print 1000+ Tee shirts.

--Rick

 

[maxwelhse]

How precise do you need these to be?

Have you looked into a small plasma cnc table?

PlasmaCAM Cutting Systems

Precisely what I was going to suggest, but I've heard almost nothing good about PlasmaCAM. I have no first hand experience with them though.

However, I see Balleigh stuff almost everywhere and their "cheapie" is 6 grand. Add your favorite flavor of plasma cutter and you're off to the races.

https://www.baileigh.com/plasma-table-pt-22

I'll also throw it out there, without knowing anything about what you're using them for, that you might be able to 3D print templates that would last "well enough" for small runs and have whatever you do with regularity made in a more durable format. 99% of what I do with 3D printed parts is use them as fixtures to make other parts from. I regularly print templates and fixtures that are far larger than a sheet of paper, on printers that can't print 1/2 that size, and just puzzle piece them together.

If a guy were gutsy, he could 3D print router templates and then trim THIN sheet metal out of a sheet with nothing more elaborate than a laminate router (with a speed control and a very steady hand), a flush trim bit, some 3M super 77, and LOTS of PPE (leathers, face shield, cup...).

Since you do this for a living, I'd probably just get the plasma table. As you've discovered, it's expensive to have stuff made. Hire the machine out in your down time and start a new line of income with it.

 

[4651feeder]

Yea I know this isn't a metal stencil machine, this is used to cut precise rubber mask to sandblast headstones. Heavier than a typical vinyl/plotter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR4QA0Pmttk

 

[1911ly]

Maybe use a 3d printed stencil? You can print fairly thin. If you know anyone near you with a printer and you have a file that can be converted to a printable format. If it can be lazered it should be able to be printed.

 

[Reagan40]

Maybe use a 3d printed stencil? You can print fairly thin. If you know anyone near you with a printer and you have a file that can be converted to a printable format. If it can be lazered it should be able to be printed.

The 3D printer idea is intriguing. I may be able to find other uses for it. My only concern is that I have heard 3D printers are slow. I know there are a lot of variables, but with a reasonably affordable 3D printer, printing a 4 inch by 6 inch stencil, with 4 letters cut out, what kind of time frame would I be looking at to make one?

 

[1911ly]

If you are printing something say .2 or 3mm thick I would think less then 10 minute. If you have a test file that is not proprietary that you can share I can play around and give you a better ideal of times.

 

[BiscuitsandGravy]

Not to thread jack but since we are talking metal cutting... What would you recommend for laser etching/marking 304 stainless?

 

[maxwelhse]

The 3D printer idea is intriguing. I may be able to find other uses for it. My only concern is that I have heard 3D printers are slow. I know there are a lot of variables, but with a reasonably affordable 3D printer, printing a 4 inch by 6 inch stencil, with 4 letters cut out, what kind of time frame would I be looking at to make one?

If you can tell us what you're actually doing with the stencils, we can provide a better estimate of what is possible and how long it will take. Print times will vary wildly with thickness, material, quality, etc. A solid 4"x6" block of PLA ("cheap" stuff that prints "fast") about 1/8" thick will take most mid-market hobby level printers anywhere from 4-8 hours (firing from the hip and making other assumptions). Print time is mostly linear, so if you project that's 50% too much material than what you want to do, then take about 1/2 the time away. I will say that you'll find you need a minimum print thickness on some parts just to prevent warping, shrinking, etc. I've not had much luck with printing stuff as thin as 0.2mm, for instance. But, that's me.

Anyhow, if you're doing something like making paint stencils, then the way to go would be to print a template and letters that snap in to each other and just have the printer running full-time making spares and assemble the templates for usage as you need them.

Honestly, your best bet is to find a printer dealer in your area and take what you want to do to them and let them show you what they have. Just because something "can" be done with a $99 DIY printer, doesn't mean that a $20,000 printer isn't actually the right answer for you based on your usage. You'll find dealers for higher end printers, like Stratasys, all over the place.

Toward the hobby level side, Maker Gear and SeeMeCNC are both somewhat local. Maker is in Beechwood, OH and SeeMeCNC is in Ligonier, IN. It's entirely possible there are many others within a reasonable drive too. You could reach out to them with your concepts and see what they quote. I have direct experience with both companies and their support is awesome.

Not to thread jack but since we are talking metal cutting... What would you recommend for laser etching/marking 304 stainless?

Etching and marking? Either a laser or a printer. I imagine the printer would be radically cheaper, but I've only ever seen them in-line in a factory process (so a sheet of metal rolls past the printer and it marks it from overhead). You could also chemically etch it, but that's probably even more labor than doing it by hand.

 

[Reagan40]

I would be using these stencil to paint labels on cases. I would make probably about 30-40 different stencils, and some of the stencils would need to be in the quantity range of 6-12. The thing is, I don’t need them all right away. For instance, if I had the ability right now, I would make the same stencil 8 times and a second stencil 4 times. That would be all that would be needed for the next several weeks. I would reuse those stencils probably 20-30 times over the next 2 years or so. I like the idea of being able to make what I need when I need it. If I get a new case that needs a new label that we don’t have, I want to be able to get the stencil made and have the case painted within a few days.

We we currently use the brass letter and number stencils, but we only have 1 kit. To do this efficiently marking multiple cases at a time, I would have to purchase several hundred dollars worth of the brass stencil kits. That would not allow me to do logos, which we have been outsourcing. I saw the Dremel 3D printer that runs $600 on line last night. I don’t know enough to know if that is a good machine or if I’m paying more for the name, but if I could get into something in that price range, and it did the job, it would pay for itself in less than a year, even considering consumables. Currently, our process is so slow and inefficient, it’s costing money in labor hours. I would still have the guys work the same hours, but we could be accomplishing quite a bit more if guys weren’t literally waiting for paint to dry.

 

[maxwelhse]

I would be using these stencil to paint labels on cases. I would make probably about 30-40 different stencils, and some of the stencils would need to be in the quantity range of 6-12. The thing is, I don’t need them all right away. For instance, if I had the ability right now, I would make the same stencil 8 times and a second stencil 4 times. That would be all that would be needed for the next several weeks. I would reuse those stencils probably 20-30 times over the next 2 years or so. I like the idea of being able to make what I need when I need it. If I get a new case that needs a new label that we don’t have, I want to be able to get the stencil made and have the case painted within a few days.

We we currently use the brass letter and number stencils, but we only have 1 kit. To do this efficiently marking multiple cases at a time, I would have to purchase several hundred dollars worth of the brass stencil kits. That would not allow me to do logos, which we have been outsourcing. I saw the Dremel 3D printer that runs $600 on line last night. I don’t know enough to know if that is a good machine or if I’m paying more for the name, but if I could get into something in that price range, and it did the job, it would pay for itself in less than a year, even considering consumables. Currently, our process is so slow and inefficient, it’s costing money in labor hours. I would still have the guys work the same hours, but we could be accomplishing quite a bit more if guys weren’t literally waiting for paint to dry.

I think a 3D printer might work out find for you, but my gut feeling on this is to just buy more of the brass stencils if they work well. A printer costing in the range of several hundred dollars is going to be the lower end of the hobby side and is probably going to be more frustration for you than it's worth. A quality hobby-level printer, that still isn't going to be perfect but will be well supported and mostly not a huge annoyance, starts at about $1000.

However... If you do want a new hobby that you can maybe use for your business as well, then an inexpensive printer isn't a terrible idea. Particularly if you don't do logos all that often and can afford to play with it for awhile to make it right. To that point, the Dremel is not well reviewed, primarily due to its cost vs. features, most of the time in the 3D printing circles.

This guy is the cheapest starter printer I'm aware of that is worth the time to buy and you don't have to assemble yourself (and from what I've read, it needs upgrades out of the box too, like most of the very inexpensive ones):

https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Assembled-Filament-Preloaded-Printable/dp/B073ZLSMFT/ref=sr_1_14?keywords=3d%2Bprinter&qid=1551480679&s=gateway&sr=8-14&th=1

 

[JeepHammer]

Painting!
I wondered if it was painting or sand blasting, etc.

I've been using my wife's hobby/craft cut out plotter to make gaskets, and it's often VERY tough gasket material.
It's stupid easy to do, simply scan the gasket surface into a graphics program, modify if needed, and send it to the plotter.
It's REAL fast, and it will cut fairly thick mylar material and heavy rubberized gasket material without issue.

It also cuts through that tough plastic they use for flexible cutting boards like butter.
I use that stuff for making base pads, chutes for small parts, etc in the shop and that plotter/cutter is the fastest, most precise way I've found.

Her first one had some 'Cutie' name and was under $100, the one we have currently is a Brother brand name, and was about $200, and it cuts MUCH better, so they aren't stupid expensive.

Just an idea...

 

[Reagan40]

I think a 3D printer might work out find for you, but my gut feeling on this is to just buy more of the brass stencils if they work well. A printer costing in the range of several hundred dollars is going to be the lower end of the hobby side and is probably going to be more frustration for you than it's worth. A quality hobby-level printer, that still isn't going to be perfect but will be well supported and mostly not a huge annoyance, starts at about $1000.

However... If you do want a new hobby that you can maybe use for your business as well, then an inexpensive printer isn't a terrible idea. Particularly if you don't do logos all that often and can afford to play with it for awhile to make it right. To that point, the Dremel is not well reviewed, primarily due to its cost vs. features, most of the time in the 3D printing circles.

This guy is the cheapest starter printer I'm aware of that is worth the time to buy and you don't have to assemble yourself (and from what I've read, it needs upgrades out of the box too, like most of the very inexpensive ones):

https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Assembled-Filament-Preloaded-Printable/dp/B073ZLSMFT/ref=sr_1_14?keywords=3d%2Bprinter&qid=1551480679&s=gateway&sr=8-14&th=1

i definitely like the price of the Monoproce printer. It says the build table is 4.7”x4.7”. Is there a similar model that would be at least 4.7”x 10”. That would allow me to do the stencils I need in one piece. For a few hundred dollars, it would be worth trying just for fun.

 

[1911ly]

i definitely like the price of the Monoproce printer. It says the build table is 4.7”x4.7”. Is there a similar model that would be at least 4.7”x 10”. That would allow me to do the stencils I in one piece. For a few hundred dollars, it would be worth trying just for fun.

For the money, the Ender 2 is the best bang for the buck. Seriously. I do not have one, but if i were in the market for another printer of it's size I would buy one. Check the specs. I think it is a 6x6x9 or so build area.

 

[maxwelhse]

i definitely like the price of the Monoproce printer. It says the build table is 4.7”x4.7”. Is there a similar model that would be at least 4.7”x 10”. That would allow me to do the stencils I need in one piece. For a few hundred dollars, it would be worth trying just for fun.

Anything in the 10" range is going to add another zero to the price. Don't be afraid to puzzle piece your work together to make larger parts from smaller pieces. Once you know your printer and material pretty well, you'll be able to snap stuff together like legos, sand lightly, and no one will know the difference in the end. On the printer I use the most at work, a MakerGear M2 with Hatchbox PLA, a 0.02mm offset clearance on whatever size male and female puzzle piece fits my geometry the best, results in a perfect snap fit (after shrinkage and the tolerance of the printer and everything else is accounted for) almost every time. So... Once you figure it out, it's not a big deal to repeat.

Anyhow, I'm excited for you to get into the 3D printing game as a hobby, but please do understand that even with machines that cost 10x as much (like the M2 sitting on my desk at work... ~$2k), they're still hobby grade. You're going to have to fiddle around with it, and change this or that thing depending on what you're doing, and print a bunch of scrap parts, to eventually get good results. It's not an ink jet that just "prints stuff" and it really will be a hobby all on its own.

I'm also intrigued by JeepHammer's idea. The learning curve on something like a cutter would be almost nil as compared to a printer and you might be able to get where you want to go with that too. For the price of each, both might be fun to have around.

For the money, the Ender 2 is the best bang for the buck. Seriously. I do not have one, but if i were in the market for another printer of it's size I would buy one. Check the specs. I think it is a 6x6x9 or so build area.

It's worth mentioning that the Ender 2 is a kit, requiring assembly, and once you enter that world there are dozens if not hundreds of options. For a total newb, I'd suggest sticking with a ready to run machine just to learn the ropes without having to guess if you messed something else up on the way.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Maybe a Cricut? MiL has one and does it for paint stenciling. Works awesome and not expensive at all. You'd be repeatedly doing identical disposable one-off stencils, but I hear they are cheap to make.


https://home.cricut.com/

EDIT: Ive never seen it run, but Ive seen the end results as a paint stencil. Works well.

 

[4651feeder]

...I've been using my wife's hobby/craft cut out plotter to make gaskets, and it's often VERY tough gasket material.

Oh my, that's like using your mom's best sewing shears to cut cardboard; it's works well until you get caught.

I had a Graphtec CraftRobo that worked well for cutting fiber gasket material....until the drive gears couldn't take it no more and then due to the slop it didn't work well for anything.

 

[1911ly]

Maybe a Cricut? MiL has one and does it for paint stenciling. Works awesome and not expensive at all. You'd be repeatedly doing identical disposable one-off stencils, but I hear they are cheap to make.


https://home.cricut.com/

EDIT: Ive never seen it run, but Ive seen the end results as a paint stencil. Works well.

Unless things have change they us proprietary shapes.

 

[Reagan40]

After reading all of your posts a d doing other research, I determined that my best option was a 3D printer. Honestly, I’ve wanted one for awhile, but this was my excuse. The Stencils that I need to make are 11” x 8” or so. I found that most affordable 3D printers had smaller beds than that. I found the monoprice mp10 which is about $400 and has a large enough bed to do what I need to do. After a few very frustrating days, and many thoughts of sending it back, I have it printing the stencils well. The first few days, much of the frustration came from not getting good adhesion on the first layer. Everything turned into a mess. Now, I have beautiful stencils, but they seem to be adhering too well. This printer has a removable flexible bed, so I can remove it, bend it around and try to get it to break loose. I’ve yet to get a stencil to separate from the bed without being torn and unusable. So, what is the trick? How do I get enough adhesion to get a good print, but not have to super glued to where I have to destroy it to remove it from the bed?