College smothers 1st Amendment to ban 2nd!

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • melensdad

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 94.7%
    18   1   0
    Apr 2, 2008
    24,080
    77
    Far West Suburban Lowellabama
    Apparently a college in Texas is smothering 1st Amendment rights of its students so that the 2nd Amendment won't be discussed :dunno:

    Tarrant County College Bans Empty Holster Protest

    by Robert Shibley

    May 22, 2008

    As we reported in today's press release, Tarrant County College (TCC) in Fort Worth, Texas, has banned students from wearing empty gun holsters as part of a protest against regulations and laws that prevent concealed carry license holders from carrying their guns on campus. Meant as a powerful metaphor for what these students see as being left defenseless under these regulations, this form of protest took place on campuses across the country this April. According to the organization that coordinated the event, Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, the protest involved 3,800 students from 600 campuses nationwide.

    TCC appears to be one of the few campuses where administrators interfered with this protest, and the method of the interference was more than a little suspect. As can be seen in Vice President for Student Development Juan Garcia's e-mail to student organizer Brett Poulos, Garcia says that he has "granted" their request to be able to protest, but goes right on to say that "you and other protestors may not wear empty gun holsters on campus, including the Free Speech Zone during the protest, or at any other time." (Emphasis was in the original.) Wait—they can hold an "empty holster protest," but aren't allowed to wear empty holsters? The only way you could call this "granting" a request is by using logic only a college administrator could love.

    So why the prohibition on holsters? An empty holster is merely a piece of leather. By itself, it is likely to be dangerous only if you were to hit someone with it. Other articles of clothing or personal items that college students are likely have on their person, such as books or backpacks, are inherently far more dangerous. Therefore, the objection to the holsters cannot be based in a real concern for safety; rather, it is based on what ideal administrators believe the empty holsters are meant to represent. This is the meat of the problem—TCC's restriction on wearing the empty holsters can only be based on the viewpoint that TCC administrators believe that the protestors mean to communicate—and that's unconstitutional. There is simply no reasonable way to look at the empty holster protest as it has been described and read into it some motivation that would allow the college to silence that form of expression. TCC may not like the message, but it has no justification for censoring it.

    The 1969 Supreme Court case of Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District is the seminal ruling on this kind of symbolic student expression. In that case, the Court determined that high school students were free to wear black armbands in protest of the Vietnam War because administrators showed no reason why such a protest would create substantial interference with discipline. And since a public high school is a far more regulated environment than a public college, TCC administrators accordingly have even less justification to interfere with peaceful symbolic protests.

    TCC's free speech zone is also a shameful abomination when it comes to free speech rights. Poulos describes the South Campus free speech zone as an elevated, circular concrete platform about 12 feet across. Sounds more like a free speech cage to me. It's certainly not a meaningful space in which to hold a protest, and what's the point, anyway, when you aren't even allowed to express yourself fully there? Further, Tarrant County College is in Texas, home to the legally-struck-down "free speech gazebo" of Texas Tech. Maintaining a similar free speech zone in the very same state is certainly unwise from a legal standpoint, to say the least.

    TCC has no real choice—it must recognize the right of its students to protest its policies and state laws in a peaceful manner—even if this involves empty gun holsters. Hopefully, the sunlight of public exposure will be enough to convince the school that its duty is to defend free speech, not restrict or quarantine it.

    FIRE - Foundation for Individual Rights in Education
     

    JetGirl

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    May 7, 2008
    18,774
    83
    N/E Corner
    I'd hope somewhere someone is fact gathering for a class action against the violation of these students' civil rights. I'm a far stretch from being "sue happy" but this blows donkey.
     

    melensdad

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 94.7%
    18   1   0
    Apr 2, 2008
    24,080
    77
    Far West Suburban Lowellabama
    Agreed!

    I graduated from Wabash College in the early 80's and, at the time, the student body was conservative, the administration was generally conservative, and with a few exceptions, the faculty was very liberal. We had GREAT debates and discussions and ANY topic was fair game. There we even a college sponsored forum called "It Seems To Me That . . . " and you could say/write any position on any topic.

    Oh for the good old days when a school was not afraid to let it's students think for themselves. I suspect Wabash has held that tradition, but obviously many school practice liberal dictatorship.
     
    Rating - 100%
    10   0   0
    May 19, 2008
    1,836
    38
    Indian-noplace
    Commie teaching, hippie loving anti gun outrage!

    That is horrible. I would have worn the holster any ways. You can't tell me to shut my mouth. See section I

    Good thing the ACLU is quick to act on this....
     

    SavageEagle

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Apr 27, 2008
    19,568
    38
    I can't wait to read about the lawsuit that arrises when a student gets expelled for violations against the SCHOOLS violation against free speech! Take that anti-rights commie bastards!
     

    Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 99.6%
    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
    99
    Greenfield, IN
    I hate to be the devils advocate, but a college, despite federal and state funding on many occasions, is a paid business. Therefore, its private property, so they can ban all they want. If they banned smoking on campus, they are allowed to do that. I hate how many campuses ban firearms carry, but its their choice as it is private property.

    Free speech has nothing to do with this. Getting into a pissing match regarding speech on private property, while noble and serves a great purpose, will result in a lot of court fees and nothing gained.

    I hate that campuses ban even holsters, but realistically, we wouldnt want people putting Hillary and anti-gun posters in our yards, now wouldnt we? :( Similar arguement. This is as if someone put a campaign sign in our yard for someone we stand against. Then that person sues you for taking the sign down. We have to understand that there ARE property rights (hey, Ive had 2 years on the 1st amend alone due to college) in respect to the 1st. Heck, did you guys know that cussing is NOT protected by the 1st amendment. If you cuss someone out, then claim it's protected speech, good luck!
     

    melensdad

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 94.7%
    18   1   0
    Apr 2, 2008
    24,080
    77
    Far West Suburban Lowellabama
    I hate to be the devils advocate, but a college, despite federal and state funding on many occasions, is a paid business. Therefore, its private property, so they can ban all they want.
    I did a quick google search. From the college website it appears to be a publicly funded college. It is not a private institution.

    If you were suggesting that Wabash College, Notre Dame, or Butler could ban things as they pleased, then I would agree with you because those are actually private institutions. However, this college appears to be akin to Purdue University or I.U. State supported, owned and operated institutions.
     

    Scutter01

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 21, 2008
    23,750
    48
    I think it's more about banning any kind of free speech at all. Colleges of all places should be the exact place where you can have free and open discussions about anything without having to go to a designated "free speech zone" to do it. The fact that the college is now regulating their so-called "free speech zone" shows that it's anything but.
     

    Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 99.6%
    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
    99
    Greenfield, IN
    Then if its state property (even city property) arent they allowed to control speech as it is not a "public forum". An area must be determined to be a public forum or private property (with permission of property owner/controller). This is where the classes pay off.

    If it is not considered a public forum (which is upon determination of the state/city controlling the property, controlling can be funding), then 1st amendment rights (and many others) can be restricted/gagged as they see fit. As you can see, there are very few "public forums" left.

    Public forums are rare, usually parks and such. But, public forums are determined by the government's willingness to control the appropriate rights in that area. For example, you may be able to picket outside of a courthouse, however, not inside the court room or the hall way outside. There is a restriction there that is considered "common sense". However, restrictions such as the ban on what we see as 1st amendment speech regarding the 2nd amendment, while not "common sense" to us can be regarded as "common sense" to the controlling entity i.e. the board of the school, usually acting upon a mandate from the main controlling entity, in this case, the government.

    Many people believe the constitution is cut and dried, with shall not be infringed and such, however, so many supreme court cases (particularly with the 1st amend, practically thousands) changing it or adding to it, it becomes more muddied than that. I do not like that, however, that is how it is.
     

    Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 99.6%
    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
    99
    Greenfield, IN
    In actuality, the best public forum is the last few minutes of city council meetings (the original purpose for those things) when they allow the citizens to speak on thier issues. The old meetings used to consist of almost the entire town to speak their mind and debate in a controlled environment (no one screaming over another) issues affecting the community.

    Now, no one even goes to the things. People get mad when city taxes go up or something happens in zoning, however, they never go to the meetings to debate or oppose it.
     

    melensdad

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 94.7%
    18   1   0
    Apr 2, 2008
    24,080
    77
    Far West Suburban Lowellabama
    the board of the school, usually acting upon a mandate from the main controlling entity, in this case, the government.

    Actually they usually have a pretty autonomous role and resist mandates from the states.

    This board, or more likely some anti-gun high level administrator, is pushing its/his/her personal agenda. It is very common on college campuses where the faculty & administration believe they know better than everyone else. It is also why common sense, or anything based on real life, is so difficult to find on college campuses.
     

    Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 99.6%
    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
    99
    Greenfield, IN
    Its a hard spot, I will agree. They will reist mandates from the state regarding this or that, but then use that same power given to them by the state to push their agenda. That was the point I sort of hinted at but should have stated. The state may not agree to this, but have empowered the administration of the school to act as they see fit to run the school. The government is composed of people. People are flawed, therefore the government is flawed and subject to the whims of emotions that people tend to have.
     

    Yamaha

    Expert
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 6, 2008
    898
    16
    Summitville,IN
    I was asked by a professor to remove my fobus during class, not a problem. Otherwise, no issues, then again we didn't throw it by the administration either....
     

    Lars

    Rifleman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 6, 2008
    4,342
    38
    Cedar Creek, TX
    What was his justification for even asking?

    Did he ask the females in class to empty their purses of pepper spray and leave them at the door? That is actually a weapon, what he asked you to remove was not.

    While in principle I agree 100% with you here Melensdad. Having been a college student, with $16,000 worth of student loans I'm making monthly payments on, I can say if the choice is remove my holster for a class and avoid having other bad things happen, (ie. lost credit for the class, expulsion etc.) I would agree to do what the instructor asked, and then put my holster back on after the class.

    I think the Empty Holster Protests are a great idea. At the same time, I don't think it's prudent to get hostile or militant to the administration, especially the professors when they make an at least semi reasonable request.
     

    Yamaha

    Expert
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 6, 2008
    898
    16
    Summitville,IN
    the one prof asked due to not wanting to arouse a debate or distract other students from their work.

    when approached in a polite manner, I will return the favor if its reasonable.
     

    Lars

    Rifleman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 6, 2008
    4,342
    38
    Cedar Creek, TX
    the one prof asked due to not wanting to arouse a debate or distract other students from their work.

    when approached in a polite manner, I will return the favor if its reasonable.

    Sounds like a reasonable request, and reason for it. And it sounds like you responded in kind. I think I'd have done the same.

    Of course I likely would have had a firearm in a more concealed location with me at the same time. ;)
     
    Top Bottom