College smothers 1st Amendment to ban 2nd!

[melensdad]

the one prof asked due to not wanting to arouse a debate or distract other students from their work.

Sounds like a reasonable request, and reason for it.

I'm sorry but it does not sound reasonable.

If I wear a shirt that opposes abortion would it be reasonable for the local feminists rights professor to suggest that I take it off because it might "arouse debate" or "distract" the other students? I'll bet she'd be happy if I wear a shirt that promotes abortion . . . ! Sound like a double standard.

If I drive a large SUV and park it in front of the classroom because I can afford gas at $4.++ per gallon will the environmentalists tree hugging professor take offense . . . ?

How about I wear a fur lined collar on my winter parka to class when its cold outside will the animal rights loving professor ask me to remove it from the classroom because it will "arouse" some debate . . . ?

I was a college student too. I can NOT even imagine one of the liberal professors asking a student to do something like this and hope to get away with it!!! My daughter will soon be entering 8th grade and is considering a "projectile" science fair project using her AR15 and handloaded bullets of different weights standardized on one weight of powder charge, do you think she will cower down to a teacher who won't allow that? If my little 13 year old girl won't back down then no college student should do it either. I'd be writing a formal letter of complaint against the professor for violating my 1st Amendment rights if I was asked to remove an empty holster. Heck I'd start to carry it every day and put my sunglasses and a spare pen in it just to **** them off!

If you guys think it is reasonable then you are cowards who are willing to give up your constitutional right to free expression. JMO

 

[Lars]

I would base my response to your above Melensdad on what class I was in.

If I'm in a math class, distracting other students, or starting a debate is hardly the thing to do. If you were in a politics, or American History class, completely different story.

I went to school to learn, not to discuss every students pet issue. I'd expect my classmates where there for the same reason. Has nothing to do with cowardices. I don't want to discuss abortion with the Pro Choice camp in my classes. I don't want to discuss the nature of racism with the black panthers in the class with me. Or the benefits of socialism with that group either. I'm in the class to learn (insert math, science, information technology, etc.). The exception to this as I mentioned above would be if we were in a class specifically about politics, American history, or a debate class.

Kudos to your daughter and her willingness to stand up to the teacher. With luck you won't have to spend any money getting her back into school if someone decides to expel her for bringing something related to guns into the school.


I know we don't see eye to eye Melensdad, and that's alright.

 

[melensdad]

You really must be joking?

But in case you are not, would it be OK for the professors to ask you to disrobe or turn your shirt inside out if you wore a Pro-Abortion shirt to a Religion class or an Anti-Abortion shirt to a class on Feminist Thought? Would it be OK to wear a Che Revera shirt to an Economics class discussing Western Capitalism or a Ronald Reagan shirt to a class on Marxist Philosophy?

In ALL of those cases the answer MUST be a resounding YES!

And in ALL those cases why would it make ANY difference if you then walked into Math class or Astronomy class wearing the same shirt.

Can you HONESTLY tell me that a "liberal" would back down on the right of free speech? Yet you are willing to back down. Why?

 

[Lars]

Primarily because a t-shirt isn't as likely to cause primordial fear as a firearm, or something that represents a firearm, in this case a holster.

I've mentioned before it's called an irrational fear for a reason. I'd rather not have to deal with it personally. That's also why I subscribe to the "Concealed means Concealed." mentality in regards to my personal carrying of a firearm.

What stinks is my unwillingness to get into heated arguments, discussions, debates in person. Is the kind of thing that leads to this sort of non-sense which is as I take it, what you are trying to avoid.

Man banned from jet for Transformers T-shirt | The Sun |HomePage|News

AIRPORT guards stopped a man boarding a plane — for wearing a Transformers T-shirt showing a cartoon gun.

The biggest difference here is I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have put myself in that situation to begin with. And therefor it's easy for me to say, I would have complied. Primarily because no-one would have known I had a holster and/or a firearm in the first place.

 

[melensdad]

Well it is easy to see why the anti-gunners keep taking our rights.

 

[Lars]

I guess I should also add. I went to a highschool that prohibited anything that had Band Logos, Beer company Logos, Cigarette Company logos etc. on it.

So no Metalica T-Shirts, or even notebooks with Winston cup cars due to sponsor logos on the cars etc. Sure this was an infringment on "free speech." It also happened to be a private school that I paid to go to, and agreed to abide by their rules. Most colleges have a series of rules you agree to as well. In fact most of them have specifically a no-firearms rule.

I understand an empty holster is NOT EQUAL to a firearm, but this would have influenced my decision to agree with the professor and do as asked.

 

[Lars]

Well it is easy to see why the anti-gunners keep taking our rights.

like in Ohio where gun owners have had sweeping changes in favor of Gun Owners? Or Georgia where similar sweeping changes have been going in favor of Gun Owners?

Pick your battles. A college doesn't have any control over the laws in the state or country.

 

[melensdad]

In THIS case the college did not ban anything or have anything in their dress code barring holsters. It was the whim and attitude of an anti-gun professor and nothing more than that.

As for the battles, yes we have taken back SOME SMALL PORTION of what we lost at state level, and we may have a favorable ruling in the Supreme Court soon, but it is hard to deny that we have been on the defensive for a couple of decades and lost far more than we have won back.

 

[Lars]

I won't argue that point. No reason to.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

This would never happen in Texas!

Oh . . . nevermind.

 

[Benny]

It's amazing that this would happen in Texas.

 

[JetGirl]

I'm sorry but it does not sound reasonable.

I would base my response to your above Melensdad on what class I was in.

I wondered if anyone had taken into consideration that if it's not in a policy handbook in the dress code section and has not been agreed to by a signature... it's fair game. Fur coats, Message T-shirts, Holsters...

Then I read further and saw:

In THIS case the college did not ban anything or have anything in their dress code barring holsters.

Gotta go with Melensdad on this one. IF there were a caveat of any type even alluding to "political statements will not be allowed in any state of dress" or something similar, then I'd agree that the students would be in violation of an agreement they previously consented to.
This is not the case here. But if in fact it were, "political statements" (which this really is) would also apply to election pins/buttons, t-shirts, etc. Unless an institution is willing to include all forms of political bias, they've got no right to single out an empty holster.

 

[melensdad]

. . .if it's not in a policy handbook in the dress code section and has not been agreed to by a signature...

. . .

IF there were a caveat of any type even alluding to "political statements will not be allowed in any state of dress" or something similar, then I'd agree that the students would be in violation of an agreement they previously consented to.

This is not the case here. But if in fact it were, "political statements" (which this really is) would also apply to election pins/buttons, t-shirts, etc. Unless an institution is willing to include all forms of political bias, they've got no right to single out an empty holster.

Perhaps a lawyer on this board could correct me, but I believe that if the college made it a condition for students to give up their 1st Amendment rights as a condition of entry to the college that the SCOTUS would find that condition to be unreasonable in the eyes of the law.

What is really astounding is that we have 2nd Amendment advocates here who will so easily give up their 1st Amendment right.

What is also really astounding is that if the situation were slightly diffenernt and we were asking a "liberal" to give up his 1st Amendment rights this would not be a simple case of giving in to the professor's wishes, this would be the making of a holy quest to the Supreme Court, backed by the full power of the ACLU.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Perhaps a lawyer on this board could correct me, but I believe that if the college made it a condition for students to give up their 1st Amendment rights as a condition of entry to the college that the SCOTUS would find that condition to be unreasonable in the eyes of the law.

What is really astounding is that we have 2nd Amendment advocates here who will so easily give up their 1st Amendment right.

What is also really astounding is that if the situation were slightly diffenernt and we were asking a "liberal" to give up his 1st Amendment rights this would not be a simple case of giving in to the professor's wishes, this would be the making of a holy quest to the Supreme Court, backed by the full power of the ACLU.

I don't think SCOTUS would take the case, nor do I think it would ever get to even an appeals court. College is voluntary, and no one is forced to be there. You make your choices, and if the choice is to continue going to college and earning credit for that class vs. making a stand for the 1A or 2A, then the decision was yours. This is not the same as in k-12, where the inmates, er, students are compelled to be there to be indoctrinated, er, "educated".:rolleyesedit:

I agree though, I can't see giving up the right of free speech in appeasement of the professor, and likely would tell him that his raising a stink about it is causing more distraction than ignoring it.

Keep in mind, though, that only government can infringe on your rights-no one else can attempt to compel you to act in a particular fashion. Asking someone to refrain from speaking in a particular manner is not taking away their right; they can refuse. Government can penalize for that refusal, and none of us have a choice as to our government or those in it other than at election time unless we choose to leave the country.

In short, I agree that the holster should have stayed where it was as should the student, but then again, I wasn't the one there, making the decision at the time. It's easy to make a pronouncement like that when we have nothing (like a college education) at stake. We all live with our choices.

Blessings,
B

 

[melensdad]

I don't think SCOTUS would take the case, nor do I think it would ever get to even an appeals court.

Your correct the SCOTUS would not need to take the case. There is plenty of evidence that the lower courts would beat the college senseless and have them crying for mercy. The courts have ruled AGAINST colleges in the past for trying to stifle the 1st Amendment rights of 'voluntary' students and the ACLU has defended the students. I did a couple of google searches and came up with several instances of colleges losing to the ACLU, and I didn't search very hard to find them.

Put your holsters back on boys, and don't forget to take your balls out of your wife's (or girlfreind's) purse! Wear them proud on campus!

 

[Lars]

I don't think SCOTUS would take the case, nor do I think it would ever get to even an appeals court. College is voluntary, and no one is forced to be there. You make your choices, and if the choice is to continue going to college and earning credit for that class vs. making a stand for the 1A or 2A, then the decision was yours. This is not the same as in k-12, where the inmates, er, students are compelled to be there to be indoctrinated, er, "educated".:rolleyesedit:

I agree though, I can't see giving up the right of free speech in appeasement of the professor, and likely would tell him that his raising a stink about it is causing more distraction than ignoring it.

Keep in mind, though, that only government can infringe on your rights-no one else can attempt to compel you to act in a particular fashion. Asking someone to refrain from speaking in a particular manner is not taking away their right; they can refuse. Government can penalize for that refusal, and none of us have a choice as to our government or those in it other than at election time unless we choose to leave the country.

In short, I agree that the holster should have stayed where it was as should the student, but then again, I wasn't the one there, making the decision at the time. It's easy to make a pronouncement like that when we have nothing (like a college education) at stake. We all live with our choices.

Blessings,
B

I agree with everything written here. It's the highlighted line at the bottom that lead to my responses above.

 

[melensdad]

It's easy to make a pronouncement like that when we have nothing (like a college education) at stake. We all live with our choices.

Blessings,
B

You always know the right thing to do, the hard part is choosing to do it.

The Christian martyrs are proof of doing the right thing, died for it. The Founding Fathers of the US did the right thing, lived to tell about it and gave us this great nation. Martin Luther King did the right thing, died for it, but gave us a largely peaceful revolution leading to equality. Ronald Reagan did the right thing, gave us the start of a political revolution of peaceful type.