Competitive shooting vs. formal training?

[ziggy]

I would appreciate hearing the thoughts of INGO'ers on the relative benefits of participation in competitive shooting such as IDPA versus spending time and money on formal training.
I recently read one guy's opinion that people who carry should shoot in something like IDPA at least a few times per year. Any thoughts on that?
Also, how many of you shoot at Glock Sport Shooting Foundation events and what can you tell the rest of us about them?

 

[rhino]

My opinion is to do both. Matches are great practice and a way to test your progress. Formal training is where you learn new things, get help with problems you can't solve yourself quickly, and learn what and how to practice better. Formal training will also often expose you to many ideas you had never considered, and give you a better idea of what you don't know and what you need to learn more about.

 

[Que]

Training (class, range, and force-on-force), mixed with shooting sports to test some of the lessons, is a good thing.

I've shot GSSF matches and they were okay, but I like USPSA a lot better.

 

[chezuki]

Both! Training teaches you techniques, what to practice, and how to practice. Matches force you to think quickly and make quick decisions and tests how well you perform those techniques under pressure.

 

[Rob377]

Competition will get you killed on the critical dynamic 2-way range.

 

[Sniper 79]

Training is always good. I like to shoot some comps because it puts you under stress. It only takes seconds to find out the men from the boys. Funny how the guys with all the expensive stuff usually suck. Watch out for the older guys with old worn blued guns and leather.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

As long as you remember competitive shooting is a sport, you can get something out of it. Pressing yourself for time, simulated stress, learning flash sight pictures at various ranges, etc. Unfortunately, there will always be a contingent that forgets that its a sport, not a recreation. The downside is increased opinions of one's own abilities as there is no return fire, too much emphasis on "sport" requirements in a carry setup, etc. In real life, you are unlikely to prevail against multiple targets at multiple distances who have decided to engage you. In real life, you are quite likely to have threats that are not in front of you. In real life, the gun fight is over one way or the other before anyone reloads the vast majority of the time. Ideally, force on force training should be a priority. I like IDPA and the like, but there's a really different feedback from having a slow course time vs taking a simunition in the face and realizing that you would have died in a real shooting. You get a much better idea of what works and what doesn't, and it sticks with you a lot longer. I still remember a range instructor lighting me up as I got out of "my" patrol car and realizing there was no way that what I thought I should do would work.

Without some level of training or coaching, repetitive practice is of limited value. You may simply be hammering bad habits into your head. Breaking a habit after thousands and thousands of rounds has ingrained it is extremely difficult. I'm still fighting myself occasionally as I try to revert to Weaver, and that's been the work of YEARS.

So, my recommendation would be:
1) Training and coaching
2) Practice

Repeat until fundamentals are well onboard.

3) Force on Force training
4) Competition shooting

Doing the FoF first will help you go into competitions with a better understanding of what's applicable to "real world" and what's for the sake of making the sport interesting.

 

[bwframe]

Standing on a line with others in training classes, I notice the first cold shot is always mine.
I cannot speak to any of the other shooting sports, I only do USPSA.

 

[cedartop]

As long as you remember competitive shooting is a sport, you can get something out of it. Pressing yourself for time, simulated stress, learning flash sight pictures at various ranges, etc. Unfortunately, there will always be a contingent that forgets that its a sport, not a recreation. The downside is increased opinions of one's own abilities as there is no return fire, too much emphasis on "sport" requirements in a carry setup, etc. In real life, you are unlikely to prevail against multiple targets at multiple distances who have decided to engage you. In real life, you are quite likely to have threats that are not in front of you. In real life, the gun fight is over one way or the other before anyone reloads the vast majority of the time. Ideally, force on force training should be a priority. I like IDPA and the like, but there's a really different feedback from having a slow course time vs taking a simunition in the face and realizing that you would have died in a real shooting. You get a much better idea of what works and what doesn't, and it sticks with you a lot longer. I still remember a range instructor lighting me up as I got out of "my" patrol car and realizing there was no way that what I thought I should do would work.

Without some level of training or coaching, repetitive practice is of limited value. You may simply be hammering bad habits into your head. Breaking a habit after thousands and thousands of rounds has ingrained it is extremely difficult. I'm still fighting myself occasionally as I try to revert to Weaver, and that's been the work of YEARS.

So, my recommendation would be:
1) Training and coaching
2) Practice

Repeat until fundamentals are well onboard.

3) Force on Force training
4) Competition shooting

Doing the FoF first will help you go into competitions with a better understanding of what's applicable to "real world" and what's for the sake of making the sport interesting.

That is a pretty impressive post. Can't really add anything more.

 

[IndyGlockMan]

Training will make you a better competitor because it teaches you the skills.
Competition is a way to deploy those skills.

Competition is not training. period.

I trained at TDI. Tactical Defense Institute in Ohio. Great place and great people!

 

[AlwaysVigilant]

As long as you remember competitive shooting is a sport, you can get something out of it. Pressing yourself for time, simulated stress, learning flash sight pictures at various ranges, etc. Unfortunately, there will always be a contingent that forgets that its a sport, not a recreation. The downside is increased opinions of one's own abilities as there is no return fire, too much emphasis on "sport" requirements in a carry setup, etc. In real life, you are unlikely to prevail against multiple targets at multiple distances who have decided to engage you. In real life, you are quite likely to have threats that are not in front of you. In real life, the gun fight is over one way or the other before anyone reloads the vast majority of the time. Ideally, force on force training should be a priority. I like IDPA and the like, but there's a really different feedback from having a slow course time vs taking a simunition in the face and realizing that you would have died in a real shooting. You get a much better idea of what works and what doesn't, and it sticks with you a lot longer. I still remember a range instructor lighting me up as I got out of "my" patrol car and realizing there was no way that what I thought I should do would work.

Without some level of training or coaching, repetitive practice is of limited value. You may simply be hammering bad habits into your head. Breaking a habit after thousands and thousands of rounds has ingrained it is extremely difficult. I'm still fighting myself occasionally as I try to revert to Weaver, and that's been the work of YEARS.

So, my recommendation would be:
1) Training and coaching
2) Practice

Repeat until fundamentals are well onboard.

3) Force on Force training
4) Competition shooting

Doing the FoF first will help you go into competitions with a better understanding of what's applicable to "real world" and what's for the sake of making the sport interesting.

This. Great post.

 

[throttletony]

I'll add that competitive shooting is better than couch sitting - but it is not a replacement for real training.
In other words, any trigger time is better than none (including range time), but be careful to not build those training scars that you'll have to untrain later. I'm a frugal, poor grad student, so the price tag for training is difficult for me to swallow - but there's always birthdays and Christmas to ask for those things

Similar to dryfiring a gun at home, you can do a lot of training at home to build good habits and the internet (esp. youtube) has a lot of good -- and some bad -- sources of info.

The best student is the one who knows he doesn't know everything, so look for information from a variety of sources (i.e If Rob Pincus and James Yeager preach different things, find which works best for you, but be aware of the other)

 

[kml]

Agree with BehindBlueI's very well thought out priority list for training.

Time spent learning to identify and avoid the situations in the first place and the legalities of defensive firearms use should happen early also but are often ignored. Not having to shoot someone is my first priority in ANY situation.

Train often for realistic situations and use the gear you plan to have with you. Trying to be competent with 15 different guns makes life harder for you than it needs to be and increases the chance of you screwing up. Knowing how to use a few guns VERY well is more effective.

Competitive shooting sports are good for keeping you familiar with your weapon, what all the buttons do and the mechanics of manipulating them. They are usually centered around absurdly unrealistic uses of a weapon - a shotgun waiting ready for you in a barrel, walking around in the open from target area to target area knowing you're supposed to start here, then go there where more "bad guys" will kindly make themselves available for you to defeat, and so on...

Some of the practical pistol competitions worked very hard to try to keep gamesmanship from taking over but most lost the battle to varying degrees. That doesn't mean you can't use them with real world gear and not worry about your score compared to any one else's to become better at manipulating your weapon under some small degree of stress. There is a concern that bad tactical habits learned in competition will hurt you in the real world but you have to weigh the likely hood. Not shooting enough to know how to use your weapon is not helpful either. If competing keeps you shooting every month when you wouldn't otherwise, there is value. Most civilian defensive shootings are very short and to the point, with little control of the "tactical situation".

Training is very important but it isn't all the same. There are different types of training and trainers. Some have been in actual shooting situations and decided for some reason to jump into providing training. Being on the receiving end of bullets gives them an experience you can't read in a book or understand from a seminar. They might not have the best "skills" and others may be critical of their techniques. There are those who have been in multiple shooting situations and know what to do when the chips are down, and sure enough, some others may have succeeded only by blind, dumb, luck. Either way, the fact is they've actually been there.

The other type are professional students or serious competitors that became trainers and have never used a firearm in aggression or carried one professionally (LE/MIL experience). They have studied and trained extensively, often in a tight knit circle having taken each others courses repeatedly. This can be good in that there are many like minded people dedicating a lot of time, money, and effort into making themselves and each other better. Unfortunately it can also form "mutual admiration societies" where they begin to re-enforce truly craptastic ideas. An example is counting your rounds - it sounds great in theory but I have a really hard time seeing someone pull it off when getting shot at for the first time.

Which is better? Depends on what you want to learn to do. The tactics and experiences of clearing villages of insurgents is nothing to take lightly but is it directly applicable to a civilian's self defense needs and liabilities? Does a decade of doing no-knock warrants help you in a car jacking situation?

A professional student may have very well thought out and established techniques but as Mike Tyson once said "Everyone has a plan - until they get hit".

My advise? Try a little of both as both really do have something to offer but remember no one person or program is the end all be all and if they say they are.....

 

[ziggy]

Thanks to everyone who posted for their insights and the information provided.

 

[BE Mike]

Not to discount today's training, I think that old gunfighters' experiences are still relevant. I like to read about people like Jelly Bryce and Jim Cirillo. I think that their experiences still offer insight. There are two separate topics you are addressing. One is tactics and the other is gun handling/ marksmanship. To be well-rounded, one needs to develop good habits regarding all aspects of self-defense. It is far better to learn the right way first, than to try to relearn the right way after developing bad habits from a buddy who really doesn't know what he/she is talking about. I think that basic gun handling skills, regarding safety and marksmanship should be attained from a true professional at the outset. After that, more and advanced training can be added, as well as, competitive shooting. Competitive shooting can, to a degree, help one learn to perform under pressure. All trigger time, if focused on the right fundamentals, has value. All that being said, I think that people who are in occupations or regular situations where armed encounters are more probable, need advanced training more than the average Joe. Far more important, IMHO, is for the average Joe to be familiar with his or her EDC and to be able to draw, reliably hit the intended target and reloading/ change magazines.

 

[Rob377]

I ran across this and thought it might be a nice addition here

Pat McNamara – Competition Shooting
Competition is a great way to learn how to work under pressure. If you are a police officer, you are in combat the second you strap it on and walk out of the front door of your home. You do not know when that pro-timer is going to “Beep.” It may not be for twenty years.
Add pressure to the training by introducing the elements of time and peer pressure.
There are many who believe that competing in the likes of an IPSC match has no tactical relevancy, and it is all just a game.
OK, it’s a game where you are shooting your gun at targets, under time, and with people watching you. You must handle your weapon properly, and follow all rules or be DQed (disqualified). You must discern and discriminate between “shoot” and “no-shoot” targets. You have got to move and make use of cover. You will have to fire from awkward positions. You must find a solution to an ambiguous situation within your skill level.
You will compete against those in your division (weapon type and caliber), in your class (skill level classification), and in your category (male, female, age, etc.). You will be doing all of this under pressure!
It is cost effective, non-time consuming, and probably right in your back yard somewhere. I like to consider shooting in a match training that is performance based versus outcome based.
In regards to your second point about weapons handling, I completely concur and will take it a step further.
The fundamentals of marksmanship and proper weapons handling should be engraved into our hard drives and we must be able to perform associated skills intuitively. Contrary to popular belief, we human beings are not capable of ‘Multi-Tasking’. We can however perform certain tasks at a subconscious level while consciously performing another.
In regards to gun handling, there are facets that must be felt and performed at a subconscious level. i.e., loading, pre-combat check, safety manipulation, building a position, achieving a natural point of aim, sight alignment, trigger control, feeling the metal on metal imperfections in the trigger group, calling your shot, seeing how far the sight rises, seeing where the sight settles, following through, realigning the sights, and resetting the trigger. Now I can focus on the fight at a with cognitive thought.
The more we develop a skill circuit the less we are aware that we are using it. We are built to make skills automatic, to stash them in our unconscious minds. The more processing we do with our unconscious minds, the better our chance for survival.


Pat McNamara (Mac) has 22 years of Special Operations experience, 13 of which were in 1st SFOD-D. He has extensive experience in hostile fire/combat zones in the Middle East, and Eastern Europe. He trains individuals at basic and advanced levels of marksmanship and combat tactics.

If you think you're more tactical than Pat Mac, you're just f'in wrong.

 

[8th SPS USAF]

I taught myself to shoot, shot a few matches at Winamac . Took classes from John Farnam, and shot IDPA/USPSA . We have a one/two Carry Gun Matches at NPCCC each year.