Conflict avoidance

[strokin7.3]

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/co...1&spJobID=282659220&spReportId=MjgyNjU5MjIwS0

Not sure if I completely agree on the whole "Stop get back" bit of this as I feel it could be a waste of precious seconds that you could need to draw your pistol.

 

[ModernGunner]

Well, he does say, "IF you have time to do it", and notes that we "don't have to do this every single time". So, generally, I think it's at least good option when the circumstances arise.

Unfortunately, with the mindset I've noticed with some gun-toters, I can see them walking through a mall and doing this to about every third person that comes their way.

 

[strokin7.3]

Ehh, I can see doing it one handed, but not both hands. I would be doing it with the left hand while the right hand is resting on my pistol ready to draw if need be. No need to put myself at any more of a disadvantage than I have to.

And as sad as that is that is probably very true

 

[TheSpark]

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/co...1&spJobID=282659220&spReportId=MjgyNjU5MjIwS0

Not sure if I completely agree on the whole "Stop get back" bit of this as I feel it could be a waste of precious seconds that you could need to draw your pistol.

I think if the situation warrants drawing your pistol then it is way beyond the "stop get back" phase.

 

[88GT]

Ehh, I can see doing it one handed, but not both hands. I would be doing it with the left hand while the right hand is resting on my pistol ready to draw if need be. No need to put myself at any more of a disadvantage than I have to.

I have never seen a training scenario teach both hands out. Does it really do that? (Haven't clicked link as I'm teaching and perusing INGO at the same time.) Aside from not allowing access to the firearm, it would give the BG the opportunity to take control of the individual by grasping both the hands. He may not be able to keep that control, but it certainly introduces another level of interaction that could have been avoided. I always the single arm out as a self defense version of the Heisman Trophy.

And as sad as that is that is probably very true

That's funny because I'm out and about a lot and I've never seen it play out that way. Not even for a real situation where it would be warranted.

 

[Gluemanz28]

Well, he does say, "IF you have time to do it", and notes that we "don't have to do this every single time". So, generally, I think it's at least good option when the circumstances arise.

Unfortunately, with the mindset I've noticed with some gun-toters, I can see them walking through a mall and doing this to about every third person that comes their way.

 

[cedartop]

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/co...1&spJobID=282659220&spReportId=MjgyNjU5MjIwS0

Not sure if I completely agree on the whole "Stop get back" bit of this as I feel it could be a waste of precious seconds that you could need to draw your pistol.

Don't know who he is, it is a brief generic clip, but he is right. This is not a gunfight yet and hopefully won't be. He is engaging in what Southnarc has termed "managing unknown contacts". Not every confrontation is a gunfight, most aren't. Get both hands out in front of you in a compressed fence and give verbal commands. The clip unfortunately leaves out a lot of context, but it is on the right path. Our entire managing Confrontations class is built on this type of thing and the people who work through it in total really get it.

 

[CyberGuyPR]

I prefer using just my left hand. Every training I've been to teaches to give commands and/or distract the attacker with one hand, usually the non-dominant. If I go condition orange I don't touch my weapon immediately but have my right hand low and ready. Not saying this is the best/only way, just the one that makes more sense to me and the one I default to when SHTF.

 

[iChokePeople]

Both hands definitely isn't an unusual thing to teach, either in gun-based classes or in non-gun classes and training. "The Fence" is the fence. I get 88's concerns, and I think they're valid, but it's kind of a situation/range thing. I don't know of anyone who teaches *extending* the arms, and would probably walk out of that class. The majority of my background around 'the fence' is NON-gun stuff, but I've done a fair amount of training in these ranges and with these concerns in mind WITH guns, as well. Conceptually, it's definitely valid and it's easy to demonstrate that.

There are risks inherent in EVERY action you take, or fail to take, in a confrontation. Putting your hands up certainly increases the chance that they'll be grabbed. Keeping them down certainly increases the odds that you'll take a shot to the head. Each position or posture you take presents risks and opportunities. Most people who advocate the fence use it for particular ranges and situations -- it's NOT necessarily the best place to go if it's already shootin' time... but it MIGHT be. You MIGHT have to clear some space to get a tool in play, for example. Your fight MIGHT start at a range where you can safely go directly to the gun... but it also MIGHT start at a range where the first thing you have to do is block a big overhand right or try to avoid a headbutt or try to deal with someone who has grabbed you. At some ranges, in some circumstances, for some people, the fence isn't the right choice -- if there's some position or technique that fits EVERYONE, in EVERY situation, I haven't learned it yet.

What he's doing isn't unusual and is probably the most common, accepted practice today, in my experience.

Also, IMHO, you're not going to "distract" your potential attacker by something you do with your extended hand. Maybe if he's a total scrub of a predator. You could make valid arguments for only using one hand, I suppose, but I don't think distraction is one of them.

I guess my best suggestion, and I know it will ruffle some feathers, is get some good training and try it under real pressure. See if your solution is viable. Not with some friend who's trying to help you make it work, but against REAL PRESSURE from an uncooperative opponent. It's amazing how many great plans fall apart under real pressure. Next best, for those who don't do the training thing for whatever reason, is just the other part -- test whatever it is you think is the right answer against real pressure with an uncooperative opponent.

As a quick plug from a guy who ISN'T selling anything, cedartop and jdhaines offer a course that covers EXACTLY this kind of stuff. The price is very reasonable, the material is very relevant for ALL of us, and they do a great job of giving an initial overview of the problem and some ideas for how to deal with these kinds of things and how to do a real self-check on whether your ideas are really workable.

 

[lovemachine]

I thought I saw a show where Michael Janich talks about using both hands, but not extending them. Keeping your arms where you can "push" them out towards the attacker if you have to.

 

[iChokePeople]

I thought I saw a show where Michael Janich talks about using both hands, but not extending them. Keeping your arms where you can "push" them out towards the attacker if you have to.

I think nearly everyone "reputable" generally defaults to both hands, and I would be SHOCKED if anyone reputable recommended extending them -- that would be almost universally bad. Keeping them in allows pushing, punching, etc, avoids or minimizes the risk of a grab, and gives you more of an advantage in the event that grabbing is going on.

 

[lovemachine]

Makes sense.

I really should take a class on it....just relying on YouTube is almost as insane as carrying a .22 handgun.

 

[iChokePeople]

If I were designing a plan for my children, training to help prepare them for life, decrease their chances of being a victim, improve their chances for survival, THIS kind of class would definitely be higher on the list than the pistol classes that most people put at the top of the list. For most people, the chance of actually having to use a firearm to defend yourself is significantly lower than the chance of using THESE kinds of skills, and having these kinds of skills decreases the chance of using the gun even further.

 

[lovemachine]

If I were designing a plan for my children, training to help prepare them for life, decrease their chances of being a victim, improve their chances for survival, THIS kind of class would definitely be higher on the list than the pistol classes that most people put at the top of the list. For most people, the chance of actually having to use a firearm to defend yourself is significantly lower than the chance of using THESE kinds of skills, and having these kinds of skills decreases the chance of using the gun even further.

I'm actually starting to think that same way. I have started smacking my heavy bag around a bit, without boxing gloves. I'd love to be able to start training more hands on stuff like that.

 

[iChokePeople]

I'm actually starting to think that same way. I have started smacking my heavy bag around a bit, without boxing gloves. I'd love to be able to start training more hands on stuff like that.

That part is important, but so is the part before that -- managing the 'confrontation'(/situation) so that, with any luck, it's just an amusing post on INGO where you muse about whether that freak outside walmart really intended anything bad in the first place. Of course "outside WalMart" is a good clue that you should have gone straight to the long gun, so maybe that's not the best example.

ETA: Disclaimer, this is all just MY opinion. I teach nothing, sell nothing, and know nearly nothing.

 

[cosermann]

FWIW, an added benefit of a compressed fence, is that it can send a non-verbal message to witnesses that you are not the aggressor.

 

[iChokePeople]

FWIW, an added benefit of a compressed fence, is that it can send a non-verbal message to witnesses that you are not the aggressor.

+1.

 

[Movealongmovealong]

Mall ninja advice. Shine a flashlight in the face of "Anyone you perceive to be a threat".

Enjoy getting labeled by the police as a paranoid wackjob. Might not even be able to get the local police authority to sign off on a LTCH app.

 

[iChokePeople]

Mall ninja advice. Shine a flashlight in the face of "Anyone you perceive to be a threat".

Enjoy getting labeled by the police as a paranoid wackjob. Might not even be able to get the local police authority to sign off on a LTCH app.

Do you perceive a lot of people to be a threat? If by following that advice you'd be flashing people frequently, maybe you ARE a paranoid wackjob. Maybe you just live/work/play in a rough part of town, but if that's the case, I don't think the police would give you a hard time about lighting up (with a flashlight...) some of their citizens.

I carry a light and would have no qualms about lighting up someone I perceived to be a threat. I rarely even visit malls.

ETA: It's an interesting question, though, and maybe cedartop or one of our other LEOs or former LEOs can weigh in -- what would happen if someone called 911/police/sheriff to complain that I shined my (wickedly bright) flashlight in his/her eyes?

 

[cedartop]

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ETA: It's an interesting question, though, and maybe cedartop or one of our other LEOs or former LEOs can weigh in -- what would happen if someone called 911/police/sheriff to complain that I shined my (wickedly bright) flashlight in his/her eyes?

Hmm, when I was on the streets we didn't have the small bright flashlights like we do now. I never got a call to check anything like that out. It would have been a little funny.
Don't know if anyone lately has had to deal with a call like that, but since people call 911 for directions and any other kind of stupid things I guess it wouldn't surprise me.