Cooper believed that at 2200 fps, hydrostatic shock > caliber/momentum.

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Scooch over.

I will share some of mine.....

You guys are late. Dontcha is a shooter now. I think the show's over...just as well, this bag of is almost empty.

 

[churchmouse]

You guys are late. Dontcha is a shooter now. I think the show's over...just as well, this bag of is almost empty.

Will have to troll the classifieds to see what kind of odd ball crap he has to sell.

There is an inherent danger to doing that.......Must be strong when in the classifieds.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Will have to troll the classifieds to see what kind of odd ball crap he has to sell.

There is an inherent danger to doing that.......Must be strong when in the classifieds.

I hadn't thought of that. (Him selling stuff in the classifieds).

 

[NHT3]

I know watermelons aren't people but they are, for the most part water, just like people.. If there's anything to Col. Cooper's theory and what ArmedProgrammer and I have been saying, this may offer some food for thought. Personally I have as much confidence in the 22 TCM as a 45 ACP where a "bad guy" might be concerned and I have personally seen it make holes in Kevlar that a +P 9MM or 45 would not penetrate. Knowing that some bad guys have taken to wearing body armor I think the TCM is a good choice for personal defense. Interesting vid

Watermelon Ballistics Demonstration - YouTube



[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Gunsite graduate[FONT=&amp] --[/FONT]Certified Glock armorer

 

[Hohn]

This is kind of the whole idea behind a N 5-7, right? Long skinny bullet at super high speeds = penetration and bad things to BG.

 

[DRob]

This article appeared in American Rifleman a few months ago. Interesting take on cartridges for self defense.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/article.php?id=13081&cat=27&sub=29

 

[NHT3]

This is kind of the whole idea behind a N 5-7, right? Long skinny bullet at super high speeds = penetration and bad things to BG.

That's my understanding.. How about another vid.

22TCM vs 5.7x28 Penetration Testing - YouTube

[FONT=&quot]NRA Life Member-- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Gunsite graduate[FONT=&quot] --[/FONT]Certified Glock armorer

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

This article appeared in American Rifleman a few months ago. Interesting take on cartridges for self defense.http://www.americanrifleman.org/article.php?id=13081&cat=27&sub=29

Interesting. i would also look at it like this:We deem a .223 bullet flying at 3000 fps to be completely worthy of killing people - and issue it to our military.We likewise deem a .22 bullet flying at 1200 fps to be a "peashooter". And while potentially lethal - most folks would call it underpowered for defensive purposes.My experience is that as velocity increases the damage goes up exponentially. So the question is: at what point on the exponential curve does the damage become "lethal enough".

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I know watermelons aren't people but they are, for the most part water, just like people..

Except people have skeletons, and most of the good bits are protected by it. Bone does a very good job of stopping super light/fast projectiles. They also shatter earlier, resulting in multiple projectiles but of very light weight, further limiting penetration. I've had one confirmed use of the new DRT ammo in 9mm, and it was a nasty but shallow arm wound that fractured the ulna but immediately stopped. It showed signs of fragmentation as soon as it broke the skin. It was definitely not a stop. Ribs are stronger, and the skull is extremely hard. (Some harder than others, witness Tat7...) They are also curved and designed (or evolved, as you prefer) to deflect damage away from the organs that are behind them. Bullets that hit straight on a flat surface of bone have a better chance of getting through, but the ribs do a surprisingly good job of routing stuff away from your giblets.

That said, I don't have any personal knowledge of a .22 magnum used in a shooting. I think extrapolating from what I have seen in investigations it would be extremely dependent on both shot placement and angle. Even a .45 ball can ride a rib around if it hits at the right/wrong angle, but the lighter bullets seem to do so more easily (less energy required to deflect a lighter object, I suppose). However that's just theory at this point.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Interesting. i would also look at it like this:We deem a .223 bullet flying at 3000 fps to be completely worthy of killing people - and issue it to our military.We likewise deem a .22 bullet flying at 1200 fps to be a "peashooter". And while potentially lethal - most folks would call it underpowered for defensive purposes.My experience is that as velocity increases the damage goes up exponentially. So the question is: at what point on the exponential curve does the damage become "lethal enough".

Not an easy question. There are many who will say the .223 is underpowered. I know that shooting it into a car results in an interior that looks like it was sandblasted but not necessarily any lethal chunks getting through. Shooting a human with it can have incredibly different results based on variables you have zero control over, if the bullet enters "flat" or with a bit of wobble and tumbles, for example.

I don't know that there is any magic velocity, especially in a handgun cartridge. My own street observations have tended to show that heavier bullets work better but there is a bias in that most street shootings don't use quality bullets. I am a fan of the .357, but I've always wondered how badly the statistics on it are skewed by the decades of it being a police service weapon, typically resulting in the use of quality ammunition and at least a modicum of training.

It generally boils down to getting a chunk of metal into something that matters. Ft/lbs, fps, etc are largely irrelevant in how that's accomplished. Like I said in my above post, heavier bullets retain more mass, are harder to deflect/slow by bone or intermediate barriers, etc. Lighter bullets using bonded ammunition can overcome some of its limitations. I'm more concerned with a bonded bullet for my .357 than for my .45, for example. There are plenty of proven and quality cartridges out there. There may be some super bullet out there, but I'll let someone else field test it.

 

[Birds Away]

Going to ba a boring show. The OP is no longer with us.

Oh so sad. He was just here to edumacate us.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

BBI - totally agree. I agree that there's a big diff between ballistic gelatin and reality. I doubt that there's a "super bullet" . All things considered the heavier a chunk of metal, and the faster it's flying, the better. When you factor in the "less recoil/faster followup" you get all sorts of different preferences. There are a number of solutions to the problem. And focusing on any ONE factor (caliber, velocity, recoil etc. ) is probably not going to lead to the right answer for any given application.

 

[Hohn]

This article appeared in American Rifleman a few months ago. Interesting take on cartridges for self defense.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/article.php?id=13081&cat=27&sub=29

If velocity is so all-important, then how is a 22WMR at subsonic speeds offering anything considerable?

I just don't get the point of these types of gun. There are so many gun in larger (more effective) calibers that are almost equally portable.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Hohn -
From some of the discussion/video above.. I don't think that ANY one factor is all important. And one factor can, if raised to the proper level , compensate for using a lesser amount of the other. For example: The 50 GI is slow but huge. I would even include the 45acp as the "relatively slow and relatively huge" type. Why is it the favorite of a LOT of folks? The recoil compares favorably to a lot of stuff - and it does a lot of damage. At the other end of the spectrum is the 5-7 and the 22TCM. Again recoil is more manageable and it spits out a lot more destruction than you would expect based on caliber alone. They just had to jack up the velocity enough to make it happen. The "classic" solution has been to go in the middle (mid size , semi fast 9/40/357). That's arguably a good direction if recoil and/or fast followup is less important for you. I, for example, carry a CM9 for exactly that reason. But there are other alternatives. What the TCM offers - is an all around choice at home - where it could be me, my wife, or one of my older kids (adult) who grab that gun from the bedside safe in a time of need. In that sort of situation the high speed / less caliber solution offers another approach. Just another viable alternative in the arsenal.

 

[Orsetto Lavatore]

My feeble Procyon brain is still trying to figure out where he was planning to get these 45gr 9mm bullets to hand load into his obscure cartridge.

 

[churchmouse]

My feeble Procyon brain is still trying to figure out where he was planning to get these 45gr 9mm bullets to hand load into his obscure cartridge.

When someone spends to much time in Mom's basement on the intewebs (most likely sporting only his "Tighty Whity's") they tend to come up with this off the wall Bravo Sierra. Attempting to solve a problem that does not really exist but in their own warped little minds. JMHO.

 

[NHT3]

Maybe here...
http://andean-inc.com/product/LIBCD950.html

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Gunsite graduate[FONT=&amp] --[/FONT]Certified Glock armorer
NRA Certified pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] --[/FONT]1911 Mechanic