Cutting the crap

[Thor]

On the firing range (tanks) if one goes kablooie when you're walking past it's like getting ice picks driven into your ears...can knock the breath out of you and drive you to your knees. When in the tank going kablooie the only thing you think about is the next target.

Of course it helps having a CVC helmet on and all that armor between you and the kablooie.

I've probably mentioned my hearing loss in other threads...not being cognizant of the kablooie at the moment does nothing for future hearing.

 

[russc2542]

On the original question of training, there are different kinds. There's conscious training (going to a class, knowing what do do) and there's actually having done stuff before (muscle memory, desensitization, repetition). The phrase used should really be: "You fall back on HABIT". If your habit is to do it right the way you were trained, you do it right. If your habit is to not do it right because the training was one class 20 years ago and you haven't practiced, you don't do it right.

car analogy: new driver, first time out in the snow. "knows" to counter steer but has to consciously think about it and remember to do so. Me, out in the snow: I'd have to actively think about it and try NOT to steer into the slide (and feed throttle ). That being said, I do have to go out and have a little fun in the first snow every year to get back in the groove because the repetition is lacking the rest of the year.

 

[SMiller]

Best way to get rid of flich is to put another task in your brain so it has something else to do besides wait for the bang.

You need something to chant so that you are focused on saying something instead of focusing on the trigger pull/bang.

I prefer to say push push push as it takes my mind of the bang and also reminds me to move move move/get off the X.

 

[ocsdor]

this auditory inclusion thing weird. I may have experienced this during my first skydive. I noted how loud the single engine plane was while riding in it, but when I proceeded to climb outside and hang off the strut, the prop blast was so harsh, and I was so focused on my hands engaging the strut that I barely heard the engine any longer... was like a slow motion movie with senses overwhelmed. kinda cool

I have over 400 jumps, yet I can't remember if I hear the engine when I climb out or not. I definitely hear the 80 mph wind. On my very first jump, I experienced some serious "time compression" once I let go of the strut. Once the parachute opened (and I no longer worried about dying), I then noticed how freezing cold my fingers were (the ground temp was 42F and I was wearing military flight gloves).

http://www.airindianaskydivingcenter.com/home

 

[bubbazap]

It is definatly a psychological phenomenon. The body has a way of shutting down and concentrating on the importaint stuff. Afterwards you realize you do have a temorary loss of hearing (just like at the range if you forget your hearing protection) and in my case I honestly do not remenber hearing the shots. I knew I had discharged the weapon, saw the muzzle flash and felt the recoil but don't remember hearing the shot.

 

[cosermann]

Col Dave Grossman (ret) cites combat data that suggests auditory effects (to some degree) occur 85% of the time

Now, this is combat data which includes DARK conditions which most civilian situations don't encounter as frequently. Low light, yes, so dark you can't see anything, not as often. So, I suspect the incidence of auditiory effects are higher in the civilian context. [Cited in Deadly Force Encounters I believe.]

We believe the brain is shutting down unnecessary senory input except for that perceived to be most necessary for survival. Usually the most needed sense his vision (hence the shutting down of the others) but in some circumstances like sitting in a trench at night your body may tend to shut down vision to enhance hearing.

Recommend Grossman's lecture on, How the Body Responds to Combat. Facinating stuff.

 

[cosermann]

The sound waves still have energy and are still doing work on ear parts that getting damaged. He may not perceive any loss of hearing yet, or he may just be lucky. . . .

Luck, nay biology perhaps.

Another Interesting thing Grossman mentions in the lecture I mentioned above is that audiologists have recently discovered that the ear has the capability to mechanically shut down. What they did not understand is that it is part of the stress response.

It's kind of like how our Iris constricts when exposed to bright light. While the eyes cannot do that faster than the speed of light, it appears as though the ear may be able to do that as fast as the sound shockwave in some cases (depending on the factors surrounding the situation and the intensity of the stress response).

That would be pretty amazing, eh?

So OP, I wouldn't be all that concerned about flinching in a "typical" self-defense situation due to the sound of your own gunfire.

An exception to this might be in a situation where it's dark enough that your eyes aren't of much use. In a case like that it might actually be louder as the body may shutdown other senses in FAVOR of hearing.

 

[rhino]

Luck, nay biology perhaps.

Another Interesting thing Grossman mentions in the lecture I mentioned above is that audiologists have recently discovered that the ear has the capability to mechanically shut down. What they did not understand is that it is part of the stress response.

It's kind of like how our Iris constricts when exposed to bright light. While the eyes cannot do that faster than the speed of light, it appears as though the ear may be able to do that as fast as the sound shockwave in some cases (depending on the factors surrounding the situation and the intensity of the stress response).

That would be pretty amazing, eh?

That would be amazing, but I'm skeptical if 1) it really happens in a significant number of cases, and 2) if it's adequate to eliminate damage to the little hair-like things that vibrate to produce the electrical signals that your brain interprets as sound.

I think a bigger factor may the shape of ear canals. Typically women have straighter ear canals than men, thus typical female hearing is more acute than male. If people who report no damage from loud sounds were examined, I'd be curious to know how "crooked" their ear canals are, how much the path attenuates the sound waves, and also how good objectively their hearing was before any of the incidents.

 

[cosermann]

That would be amazing, but I'm skeptical if 1) it really happens in a significant number of cases, and 2) if it's adequate to eliminate damage to the little hair-like things that vibrate to produce the electrical signals that your brain interprets as sound. . . ..

Yeah, I hear ya (pun intended). I'm not sure where the research is on this. Grossman's lecture was the first I heard of it, but it would explain some things.

The auditory reduction phenomenon happens different ways too. Sometimes it's a total shutdown. Sometimes you shutdown just your own shots. Etc. So, it could very well depend on the situation.

Mp3s, DVDs, and/or video downloads of the lectures are available from Gavin de Becker's site [1].

Some very interesting things in there.

[1] - https://gavindebecker.com/onlinecatalog/catalog/product/category/bulletproof-mind

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Another Interesting thing Grossman mentions in the lecture I mentioned above is that audiologists have recently discovered that the ear has the capability to mechanically shut down.

I believe there is still some controversy on the topic. I believed Grossman up front about the ear being able to "blink" briefly, and how it might offset a brief loud noise during stress. I've heard enough people who are in the know express doubts, so I don't weigh in one way or the other.

What I will say is if you discharge a firearm without hearing protection in an admin situation, you'll likely find your ears ringing. People involved in a shooting, including with the really loud guns like a .357 magnum, report not having any ringing in their ears afterward or the next day. Now, it could just be related to auditory exclusion as a psychological response explaining it. I don't know, so I'll not make any statements one way or the other until those who know more than me get on the same page.

 

[cosermann]

I believe there is still some controversy on the topic. I believed Grossman up front about the ear being able to "blink" briefly, and how it might offset a brief loud noise during stress. I've heard enough people who are in the know express doubts, so I don't weigh in one way or the other.

What I will say is if you discharge a firearm without hearing protection in an admin situation, you'll likely find your ears ringing. People involved in a shooting, including with the really loud guns like a .357 magnum, report not having any ringing in their ears afterward or the next day. Now, it could just be related to auditory exclusion as a psychological response explaining it. I don't know, so I'll not make any statements one way or the other until those who know more than me get on the same page.

I agree. Sounds like we're still in the early states of exploring the phenomenon. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we learn it varies by situation, since diminished auditory response varies/manifests itself in different ways also. Interesting theory.

 

[Onionsanddragons]

As to the OP notion toward defaulting to training:

I think the way people tend to talk about or think about this is deluded or misleading. It has been shown throughout history that people definitely default to their training. What is at fault in the discussion is what people tend to consider training these days. Just going to some classes or doing a little practicing isn't what is really meant by training in this sense.

People will tend to default to their lowest level of mastery in the applicable skill, with a higher ceiling of performance adjusted for stress tolerance. This is why stressful testing like force on force is a great way to measure where your level of mastery is currently.

Some people are naturally cooler under stress and will have less of a skill tax applied in a given situation. Most need to be exposed to similar stressors 2-5 times to significantly overcome the psychological hindrances of intense stress. The less novel the encounter is to your brain, the more of your brain is available to process the encounter.

 

[amartin31124]

I second the changing of senses in stressful situations. I was a CO for a while and can attest training does kick in when needed.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

A bit more info on auditory exclusion.

I'm currently reading "Idiot Brain", and just went through the part dealing with how we process sound and the limited attention issue. There are two theories with minor differences that aren't really important to this topic, but both indicate we have a pretty finite ability to consciously pay attention to sound. What's interesting is the subconscious is still processing more than we're aware of. One example we're all likely familiar with is you're talking with someone and someone else that you weren't previously paying attention to says your name while talking to someone else. Suddenly you're eavesdropping to see what they say about you and aren't paying any attention to your current conversation.

More interesting to me was a study that had people wear a set of head phones and a different speaker was played in each ear. The subjects were told they had to repeat back the words of one speaker. After the test, they could usually only remember if the "other" speaker was male or female. None of the words from the "other" speaker stuck in their memory. Subjects that were conditioned to expect an electric shock when they heard certain words displayed a fear arousal when the word was said by either speaker. So, we're only consciously processing one stream at a time, but a subconscious area is still scanning the "unprocessed" streams for threats. While the book doesn't spell it out, I think we can safely assume that it's looking for both physical threats (an electric shock precursor in the study, but a twig snapping in the woods or the like in real life) and social threats (what's that person saying about me?) Interesting information for LEOs, soldiers, etc., as it would indicate we can break through a partner's auditory exclusion more easily by using their name.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

IN terms of auditory? I think I am good. Past stress indicates that I can focus on the task at hand despite whatever noise is happening...
unless that noise happens to be a 3yr old grandchild running through the house screaming... then all bets are off

 

[churchmouse]

IN terms of auditory? I think I am good. Past stress indicates that I can focus on the task at hand despite whatever noise is happening...
unless that noise happens to be a 3yr old grandchild running through the house screaming... then all bets are off

Try that X's 2..........

 

[CraigAPS]

IN terms of auditory? I think I am good. Past stress indicates that I can focus on the task at hand despite whatever noise is happening...
unless that noise happens to be a 3yr old grandchild running through the house screaming... then all bets are off

This kind of proves what BBI was saying. The fact that your grandchild screaming breaks your focus is probably the same as the subconscious looking for threats in the background. In this case, your subconscious seems to be looking for threats to your family in lieu of yourself like the info that BBI was referring to.

 

[Expatriated]

This thread seems to have went down a rabbit trail. It seems the original discussion was about flinching, and somehow that got turned around to auditory exclusion in a fight will prevent flinches.

It doesn't work that way. The "bang" is produced when the bullet leaves the muzzle and the gas rapidly leaves the barrel. The gun is quiet (except for the faint click of the sear releasing) up until the bullet leaves the muzzle. At that point, the gun can no longer affect the bullet trajectory. It is not the noise that is causing a flinch, as the noise occurs too late.

When you shoot, the front site lifts due to recoil. You brain learns after many repetitions that this will be the case, so it learns that if it causes the hands to push down a little just before the trigger releases the sear, the effects of recoil are reduced or eliminated, at the expense of the trajectory of the bullet. Worse, the brain knows if the gun is loaded or not. So, if you do a lot of dry fire practice, the brain knows that the gun is unloaded and will not recoil, and as such doesn't flinch. The only reliable way to test for a flinch is a ball and dummy drill where a partner loads a magazine and randomly inserts dummy ammo. Since your brain knows this is live ammo, and confirmed by the recoil on most shots, when the dummy round is encountered, the gun will dip.

I don't know that a flinch will go away just because you are under a stress situation. If you flinch, then your brain has built the neural pathways on how to press a trigger, and part of that pathway is causing the hands to press down to resist recoil.

This is a little off topic but I just had to comment on this. I can't agree more. I've trained hundreds of students and in my experience it is very, very rare that dry fired helped anyone with recoil anticipation. It is for the very reason stated above--it's a mental thing, not a physical act of pulling a trigger a certain way. When you KNOW the gun won't go off, you don't ever flinch. When you KNOW it's going to go off, the dry fire conditioning is all but useful. Typically, in my experience, the brain does not equate these two things to be the same, so doing one doesn't help in doing the other.

I have experienced auditory exclusion. I've also been around when shots were fired and others were experiencing it and not realizing it. I also interviewed some guys right after they got in a gun fight INSIDE a car with the windows rolled up. 3 of them each fired 5 or 6 shots each. One died, another was hit but survived, and one got away unscathed. I was wondering how loud it was in the car but they each said they didn't hear anything. (Well, the dead guy didn't say anything so maybe it was loud to him, I don't know.)

 

[Brad69]

So let me relate one for ya.
23 March 2003 southern Iraq mission was recon possible bridge sites. Pulled up on a small hill overlooking the Euphates river reached for the door handle. There was a dull thump black smoke a sulphur smell my eyes burnt. I kinda fell out of the door onto my knees copper taste in my mouth. Looked down and seen blood dripping on the dirt stared at it attempting to comprehend what it was. In the distance I could hear my radio crackling.
Hot brass and links were raining down on me I look up and saw puffs of dirt from the M240 impacts. Raised my M4 and fired a few rounds. Then I thought we might want to back the vehicle up to prevent being silhouetted. Yelled for driver to back up I should have got in the vehicle before backing up the door knocked me down as he moved back. Me standing on top of this hill taking on the entire Iraqi Army smart move. Don't rember any loud noise everything had a dull sound to it. Normal recoil from M4 did not notice report of weapon I do not rember any noise of the M 240 just the" tink tink "noise of brass and links. The truck to the right had a M2 that was firing didn't notice it. My jaw always hurts after being in combat from my teeth being clenched tight.

 

[bwframe]

So let me relate one for ya.
23 March 2003 southern Iraq mission was recon possible bridge sites. Pulled up on a small hill overlooking the Euphates river reached for the door handle. There was a dull thump black smoke a sulphur smell my eyes burnt. I kinda fell out of the door onto my knees copper taste in my mouth. Looked down and seen blood dripping on the dirt stared at it attempting to comprehend what it was. In the distance I could hear my radio crackling.
Hot brass and links were raining down on me I look up and saw puffs of dirt from the M240 impacts. Raised my M4 and fired a few rounds. Then I thought we might want to back the vehicle up to prevent being silhouetted. Yelled for driver to back up should have got in the vehicle before backing up door knocked me down as he moved back. Me standing on hill taking on the entire Iraqi Army smart move. Don't rember and loud noise everything had a dull sound to it. Normal recoil from M4 did not notice report of weapon I do not rember any noise from it just the" tink tink "noise of brass and links. The truck to the right had a M2 that was firing didn't notice it. My jaw always hurts after being in combat from my teeth being clenched tight.

Wow. Thank you sir.




And thank you from the snowflakes who think they can sit through the national anthem. They don't know any better.