Dave Spaulding on the Current State of Firearms Training

[Tactically Fat]

snip...
There are a lot of people in the "You Tube generation" who want to go do "cool guy" stuff and wear their gear and they spend a lot of $$$ doing it. Think Airsoft players and all the gear they buy. Some just want to go do it in a live fire environment . That is fine. It is their $$$. They can spend it as they please. Nothing "wrong" with that unless they are operating under the misconception that their rifle and armor fashion show team tactics extravaganza will have ANY crossover effect in making them more likely to survive a deadly encounter in a parking lot or an active shooter in a shopping mall. And don't get me started on the guys who really think they are going to run out of the mall, go "kit up" , grab their rifle and go back into the mall.....Even worse might be the guys who show up to the criminal paradigm CCW oriented class with a battle belt and drop leg holster.

Kind of like this guy?

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

(I kid, I kid)

 

[Randy Harris]

Ha ha! Nice find. You caught me teaching a rifle class wearing a plate carrier....Unfortunately the pic from the other day of that class where I used a bag to teach from does not look quite as ....interesting. We generally teach one day of the rifle classes using a bag and one day using a chest rig or plate carrier to cover the use of both for students who might have brought either (or both). But we don't teach pistol classes in that gear.....

 

[Tactically Fat]

Ha ha! Nice find. You caught me teaching a rifle class wearing a plate carrier....Unfortunately the pic from the other day of that class where I used a bag to teach from does not look quite as ....interesting. We generally teach one day of the rifle classes using a bag and one day using a chest rig or plate carrier to cover the use of both for students who might have brought either (or both). But we don't teach pistol classes in that gear.....

What good is the Internet if I can't needle a guy I've never met? heh

 

[JollyMon]

That might be a bit of a stretch. Having trained with Dave several times I know he is in no way averse to people owning or training with AR15s. He just questions the logic of spending the majority of time and money equipping and training for the LEAST likely situations.

What he is speaking more to is the phenomenon of civilian guys who go to "tactical entertrainment" (ironically a term coined by Larry Vickers who has done as much to foster this as anyone) classes dressed like Seal Team 6 (including armor, helmets, $300 pants, etc) learning(?) skills that are really of questionable utility for their own personal situations. I have known guys who will move heaven and earth to go do a rifle class but have yet to take a SINGLE criminal assault paradigm CCW oriented class other than their state sanctioned safety class to get their permit, yet they carry a handgun on their person daily and their rifle sits in the safe at home.....they are exponentially more likely to have to use the handgun if they ever have to use a gun, yet they cannot make time in their busy schedule to take a class that would actually facilitate those skills.

Dave has a hard time reconciling the whole "what they need vs what they want" issue. I know this because we have actually talked about it. You can make a lot of money selling what people think they want....but you sleep better at night making sure they have what they need. While I may not agree 100% with everything Dave teaches or why he does it, he does have a thorough grip of context. There are a lot of people in the "You Tube generation" who want to go do "cool guy" stuff and wear their gear and they spend a lot of $$$ doing it. Think Airsoft players and all the gear they buy. Some just want to go do it in a live fire environment . That is fine. It is their $$$. They can spend it as they please. Nothing "wrong" with that unless they are operating under the misconception that their rifle and armor fashion show team tactics extravaganza will have ANY crossover effect in making them more likely to survive a deadly encounter in a parking lot or an active shooter in a shopping mall. And don't get me started on the guys who really think they are going to run out of the mall, go "kit up" , grab their rifle and go back into the mall.....Even worse might be the guys who show up to the criminal paradigm CCW oriented class with a battle belt and drop leg holster.

Unfortunately there also seems to be a disturbing amount of hero worship in this industry....again I think that has been exacerbated by the you tube and internet forum stuff . It is like these "fanboys" draw their own self worth from who they look up to as a trainer not from anything they personally have done or who they are. As such any slight or attack on their hero equals a personal attack on their own ego. While this phenomena might have existed 30 years ago and maybe there were arguments like "Cooper Vs Chapman" or "Ayoob Vs Taylor" you just didn't see it play out on the internet for all to see....

In any case, my advice, for what it is worth is, in the words of Craig Douglas ...."Define the problem and do the work". If your problem is criminal assault then spending 5 days at the Tactical Dude Ranch Delta Experience might not be the best use of time or resources...but after all it is your money and if you just want a cool shooting oriented vacation then go and have fun! Not everything has to be serious. But not everything is of real practical application either....don't confuse the two.

I understand his comments coming from a CCW Pistol perspective. Train as you would fight, In a pair of jeans and a tshirt. Which Is how I show up to those classes.

But in all honestly these instructors crack me up, especially when it comes to classes mainly carbine.... Such as If I want to attend a certain class you need to be able to carry 2-3 AR mags, 2-3 Pistol, and pistol. But start chastising us online when we have to show up with a plate carrier or battle belt saying we are tacticool ignoramuses training for situations that are unlikely. No I just wanted to take a Carbine class and needed the following gear on my person per your instructions.

 

[Randy Harris]

Point taken for sure.....but it is chicken and egg....

If instructor A puts out a 1 day class that the gear is Rifle and 1 magazine, pistol and 1 mag, and 200 rds total no one is going to look twice but that could very well be THE CLASS that would benefit most people....

Then instructor B lists a 1 day class with requirements of Rifle , 10 mags, pistol, 3 mags, 2000 rds and it may be the biggest waste of time and ammo as you do nothing but fire 4 to the body and 2 to the head at 5 yards until your rifle goes dry and then transition to pistol for 8 straight hours....but people will see a 5 second clip on Youtube with all the participants dressed like Call of Duty and think it is A . Awesome and B. the answer to all their problems and C. something that will make them cooler in the eyes of their co workers at the water cooler.

So people sign up for class B by the droves and class A goes the way of the Dodo bird because no one THINKS it will be of value and very few show up. So what does instructor A do? He replaces class A. with something more along the lines of class B and suddenly people start showing up. So it perpetuates. The students drive the classes offered to a large degree. An empty hand vs knife class (something that is a somewhat likely situation in criminal assaults) has a hard time getting traction...but yet another contextually challenged 2000 rd "Tactical Contractor" carbine class will fill up with a waiting list.....

I have had people in rifle class use 3 mags...with one in the rifle, and the other 2 in their back pockets of their pants and everything they needed to do was doable with that set up.

 

[cosermann]

. . . If instructor A puts out a 1 day class ...

Then instructor B lists a 1 day class ....

Man, I wish I could find more 1-day classes to fit into my schedule.

 

[rhino]

Man, I wish I could find more 1-day classes to fit into my schedule.

I'd like 2 hour classes.

 

[chezuki]

I'd like 2 hour classes.

That doesn't give you much wiggle room for your customary 1hr tardiness.

 

[JollyMon]

Man, I wish I could find more 1-day classes to fit into my schedule.

Same. Its much easier for me to swing a day class than a full weekend (especially with two rug rats).

 

[rhino]

That doesn't give you much wiggle room for your customary 1hr tardiness.

Touche', you cheeky bastich!

Same. Its much easier for me to swing a day class than a full weekend (especially with two rug rats).

Most of the local trainers do one-day and half-day classes now.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

The jiu jitsu guys gave Kano all kinds of **** when he started out with Judo. I don't know how things are now, but in the 90's I heard tons of judo vs BJJ smack talked in the dojo/rec.martial-arts and last I checked everyone still ****s all over "touch" TKD. I figure this is just that noise/tradition carrying on.

Lately there seems to be a stream of videos of trainers bragging on how they are "less tactical than thou". They all have more than a whiff of pouting about market share and usually include a reference to a class they had to cancel that is totally more valuable than some other class taught by someone else that regularly sells out.

 

[mammynun]

How does the mindset from fighting with a pistol differ from fighting with a carbine?

 

[cosermann]

... Most of the local trainers do one-day and half-day classes now.

Which is great.

 

[rhino]

Which is great.

Agreed!

 

[cedartop]

Point taken for sure.....but it is chicken and egg....

If instructor A puts out a 1 day class that the gear is Rifle and 1 magazine, pistol and 1 mag, and 200 rds total no one is going to look twice but that could very well be THE CLASS that would benefit most people....

Then instructor B lists a 1 day class with requirements of Rifle , 10 mags, pistol, 3 mags, 2000 rds and it may be the biggest waste of time and ammo as you do nothing but fire 4 to the body and 2 to the head at 5 yards until your rifle goes dry and then transition to pistol for 8 straight hours....but people will see a 5 second clip on Youtube with all the participants dressed like Call of Duty and think it is A . Awesome and B. the answer to all their problems and C. something that will make them cooler in the eyes of their co workers at the water cooler.

So people sign up for class B by the droves and class A goes the way of the Dodo bird because no one THINKS it will be of value and very few show up. So what does instructor A do? He replaces class A. with something more along the lines of class B and suddenly people start showing up. So it perpetuates. The students drive the classes offered to a large degree. An empty hand vs knife class (something that is a somewhat likely situation in criminal assaults) has a hard time getting traction...but yet another contextually challenged 2000 rd "Tactical Contractor" carbine class will fill up with a waiting list.....

I have had people in rifle class use 3 mags...with one in the rifle, and the other 2 in their back pockets of their pants and everything they needed to do was doable with that set up.

To bad Dave can't explain it like you instead of sounding like the bitter jealous old man he is. Nice of you to stick up for your buddy, you know that is a trait I admire that is sorely lacking these days.