Definition of "school" in the IC?

[88GT]

Is there a definition in the Indiana Code for a "school" as it directly relates to the question of carrying a firearm.

I've read the obvious relevant code section--http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch9.html--,but there's no definition of "school," which is irritating since I've waded through many a definition sections for other issues that felt it necessary to define things my 4y/o could have done for them.

I ask because I wonder if a homeschooling group meeting in a church would be considered a school. It is not an informal co-op of like-minded parents meeting. It's a formal program with tuition, instructors, etc. (But nothing like the government schools in any other way, not that that matters much.)

In Indiana, homeschooling households are considered non-accredited private schools for legal purposes.

It's not an issue yet, but it may be, and I need to know before I unknowingly commit a felony.

 

[rich8483]

during a recent vacation, i also wondered if an Amish school and its 1000 ft. radius would be off limits for a gun or if that does not fit the Indiana defined school.

 

[sj kahr k40]

I think this is what you are looking for

IC 35-41-1-24.7

 

[ATM]

Indiana Code 35-41-1

IC 35-41-1-24.7
"School property" defined
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).

...sj was quicker...

 

[eldirector]

If I remember correctly, IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27 refer to licensed daycare providers. Remember, not all daycares are licensed, so might not be considered schools.

 

[Hoosierdood]

IC 35-41-1-24.7
"School property" defined
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).

I don't see anything in there that would include a homeschool co-op. For the record, I have carried at our homeschool co-op before, and I'm not worried.

 

[88GT]

I don't see anything in there that would include a homeschool co-op. For the record, I have carried at our homeschool co-op before, and I'm not worried.

Under this one, strictly speaking, someone could make the case:

(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales;

Like I said before, homeschoolers are considered private schools under the law.

Dangit, I hate it when I hit the "post" instead of "preview." Was the location of your co-op someone's private residence? I'm not so worried about the school part, and I'm not worried about the church part. I'm worried about the school definition on a church where there is no explicit permission granted.

Oh, and thanks for the link to the code. I knew it existed (search here sux), but couldn't figure out in which section I might find it. Logging that away for future reference.

 

[rmabrey]

during a recent vacation, i also wondered if an Amish school and its 1000 ft. radius would be off limits for a gun or if that does not fit the Indiana defined school.

what about a 1000 foot radius?

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

during a recent vacation, i also wondered if an Amish school and its 1000 ft. radius would be off limits for a gun or if that does not fit the Indiana defined school.

what about a 1000 foot radius?

These radius things ONLY come in to play when committing / being charged with committing crimes. It's another charge that can get tacked on.

If you're on a public street / sidewalk 25' away from the school, you're generally still legal as long as you don't step onto school property.

As far as the OP goes and the whole homeschool co-op...

Like I said before, homeschoolers are considered private schools under the law.

Not to be a jerk, but is there an I.C. cite for this? (as I'm completely ignorant about it)

-J-

 

[88GT]

As far as the OP goes and the whole homeschool co-op... Not to be a jerk, but is there an I.C. cite for this? (as I'm completely ignorant about it)

-J-

Fair question, as I didn't know this when I started the home education inquiries.

I don't think it's codified in Indiana Code as much as it is a regulatory thing.

Anywho, from Indiana DOE page IDOE: The Relationship Between Public Schoolsand Homeschools In Indiana

Q. WHAT AUTHORIZATION IS NEEDED TO MAKE A HOMESCHOOL LEGAL IN INDIANA?
A. Homeschools are nonpublic, nonaccredited schools. As such, the parent, not the state, legally establishes the school. No state or public school "permission" is required.

Remember, homeschools are nonpublic, nonaccredited schools, not bound by the regulations that govern curricula, instructional time, or teacher licensure and certification in public schools.

The latter quote taken from question 10.

In addition, if the child has previously been enrolled in a government school, he is transferred to the home school when he is withdrawn. State's veriage. The implication, if taken at face value is that the home school is considered a school for the purpose of fulfilling the educational instruction/attendance requirements of the state.

There's also a "requirement" to report the home school's enrollment to the Superintendent of Education.

Home education requirements for Indiana are pretty lenient (thankfully), but we're still considered schools. Which makes the whole firearm in a school zone thing annoying at best. (Not to mention points out the utter hypocrisy and futility of such laws, but why let that stop them, heh?)

 

[rich8483]

These radius things ONLY come in to play when committing / being charged with committing crimes. It's another charge that can get tacked on.

If you're on a public street / sidewalk 25' away from the school, you're generally still legal as long as you don't step onto school property.

As far as the OP goes and the whole homeschool co-op... Not to be a jerk, but is there an I.C. cite for this? (as I'm completely ignorant about it)

-J-

ill have to look at my notes again from my lawyer class, but i understood it as the "gun free school zone" being the school, its property and a 1000 foot radius. even if you are not commiting a crime. your defenses to this is, being in an operated vehicle. living on your private property within the 1000 ft radius meant you could also have a gun on your own property.

 

[ATM]

...your defenses to this is, being in an operated vehicle. living on your private property within the 1000 ft radius meant you could also have a gun on your own property.

...or having a state license or permit to carry.

That excepts you up to the property line.

 

[Mr. Habib]

IC 35-41-1-24.7
"School property" defined
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).
As added by P.L.296-1987, SEC.4. Amended by P.L.34-1991, SEC.27; P.L.9-1991, SEC.95; P.L.2-1992, SEC.880; P.L.81-1992, SEC.38; P.L.1-1993, SEC.240; P.L.160-1994, SEC.1; P.L.1-2005, SEC.227; P.L.145-2006, SEC.37

Would the underlined parts mean that any daycare licensed or not could be considered to be school property?

 

[Hoosierdood]

Raising another question... if a homeschool is an uncredited private school, wouldn't that mean that you could not have firearms in your home? That is if you were tke the state law pertaining to "gun free school zones" to include homeschools.

I would say that a co-op would fall under that same situation. If you are permitted to have a firearm in your home where a school is being opperated, would you not be able to join a group of like minded homeschoolers?

Or to really raise some questions... how about co-op field trips? Traveling in a vehicle with school-aged children? I really think that if there were to ever be an issue with you carrying to co-op, you could find a justifiable defense if you had the right attorney.

 

[jedi]

Raising another question... if a homeschool is an uncredited private school, wouldn't that mean that you could not have firearms in your home? That is if you were tke the state law pertaining to "gun free school zones" to include homeschools.

You CAN have a firearm in your home AND home school. How?
Don't forget that ANY SCHOOL in Indiana can grant YOU the authority to have a firearm on it's property. Yes you read that right. ANY SCHOOL IN INDIANA CAN ALLOW YOU TO HAVE A FIREARM AND YOU WILL BE LEGALLY OK! Per these ICs.

IC 35-47-9
Chapter 9. Possession of Firearms on School Property and School Buses

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.
(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.


In the case of a home school YOU are the authorized person of that "school" as such you can authorize yourself the permission to have firearms at your "school" (ie. home).

Or if you want to use (B) you own the property (your home) that your "school" is using for a school function (ie. teaching your child) so you again can authorize anyone you like including yourself to have firearms on your property.

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVISE AND I AM NOT A ATTY BTW!

I would say that a co-op would fall under that same situation. If you are permitted to have a firearm in your home where a school is being opperated, would you not be able to join a group of like minded homeschoolers?

Now as for the OP and the co-op and using the church for his co-op that is where it gets more gray. The safest way would be to get it in writing from the others in the co-op that OP is authorized to carry at any function the co-op does. This would put the OP in the exempt category and solve the issue.

Any of you could ask your own local school board for this exemption but I have yet to find ANY SCHOOL BOARD that will grant it (Public school boards that is).

 

[Beau]

The IC cited covers school property. But is there a definition in IC that defines "School".

 

[rmabrey]

These radius things ONLY come in to play when committing / being charged with committing crimes. It's another charge that can get tacked on.

If you're on a public street / sidewalk 25' away from the school, you're generally still legal as long as you don't step onto school property.

-J-

Thats where i was going to go with that

wanted to see what misinformation he had first

 

[finity]

These radius things ONLY come in to play when committing / being charged with committing crimes. It's another charge that can get tacked on.

If you're on a public street / sidewalk 25' away from the school, you're generally still legal as long as you don't step onto school property.

As far as the OP goes and the whole homeschool co-op... Not to be a jerk, but is there an I.C. cite for this? (as I'm completely ignorant about it)

-J-

Thats where i was going to go with that

wanted to see what misinformation he had first

Ok you two.

Prove that it is legal to carry a firearm within 1000 feet of a school without a LTCH.

I'll prove that it's not:

US Code Title 18 Section 922

(q)(1) The Congress finds and declares that -
(A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a
pervasive, nationwide problem;
(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate
movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;
(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce
and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools,
as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the
Judiciary (!3) the House of Representatives and the Committee on
the Judiciary of the Senate;
(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its
component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which
they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;
(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary
citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through
certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime
and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children
to school for the same reason;
(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has
resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse
impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the
United States;
(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost
impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves - even
States, localities, and school systems that have made strong
efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find
their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability
of other States or localities to take strong measures; and
(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce
clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact
measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation's
schools by enactment of this subsection.
(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm -
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is -
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school
in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into
between a school in the school zone and the individual or an
employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official
capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while
traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to
public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school
premises is authorized by school authorities.

US Code Title 18 Section 921

(25) The term "school zone" means -
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private
school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a
public, parochial or private school.

So it boils down to "you can't have a gun within 1000 ft of a school except under very limited circumstances. For those without a LTCH who have a shotgun loaded on the seat next to them I'd be careful driving through a school zone.

You are right about one thing though. It would be very unlikely for you to be stopped for the sole reason of carrying in a school zone. It could happen though. Just like it would be unlikely to be stopped solely for carrying a concealed handgun in a vehicle. But it could happen though. Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean it's not illegal. It just means it's difficult to enforce.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Ok you two.

Prove that it is legal to carry a firearm within 1000 feet of a school without a LTCH.

...

Just a snip...

Carrying ANY handgun in Indiana, 1000' radius of a school or not, is already illegal without an IN LTCH.

Since we're talking about carrying handguns in this thread, I PRESUMED that someone already having the IN LTCH was a given and understood.

-J-

 

[finity]

...

Just a snip...

Carrying ANY handgun in Indiana, 1000' radius of a school or not, is already illegal without an IN LTCH.

Since we're talking about carrying handguns in this thread, I PRESUMED that someone already having the IN LTCH was a given and understood.

-J-

Sorry I re-read the thread & never saw anything related specifically to handguns.

Here is the OP again:

Is there a definition in the Indiana Code for a "school" as it directly relates to the question of carrying a firearm.

I've read the obvious relevant code section--http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch9.html--,but there's no definition of "school," which is irritating since I've waded through many a definition sections for other issues that felt it necessary to define things my 4y/o could have done for them.

I ask because I wonder if a homeschooling group meeting in a church would be considered a school. It is not an informal co-op of like-minded parents meeting. It's a formal program with tuition, instructors, etc. (But nothing like the government schools in any other way, not that that matters much.)

In Indiana, homeschooling households are considered non-accredited private schools for legal purposes.

It's not an issue yet, but it may be, and I need to know before I unknowingly commit a felony.