Do normal people care about Indiana being last state to outlaw alcohol on Sunday

[rambone]

There is no need to incorporate what appears in the first sentence of our state constitution.

Indiana Constitution, Art. 1, Sec. 1

Section 1. WE DECLARE, That all people are created equal; that they areendowed by their CREATOR with certain inalienable rights; that among theseare life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that all power isinherent in the People; and that all free governments are, and of rightought to be, founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace,safety, and well-being. For the advancement of these ends, the Peoplehave, at all times, an indefeasible right to alter and reform theirgovernment.


Its plain to see that Hoosiers have the inalienable right to enjoy liberty and pursue happiness. A valid form of liberty and pursuing happiness might be a person brewing his own alcohol and selling it on Sunday to his neighbors from a home-based storefront without needing a license.

 

[HoughMade]

There is no need to incorporate what appears in the first sentence of our state constitution.

Indiana Constitution, Art. 1, Sec. 1

Section 1. WE DECLARE, That all people are created equal; that they areendowed by their CREATOR with certain inalienable rights; that among theseare life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that all power isinherent in the People; and that all free governments are, and of rightought to be, founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace,safety, and well-being. For the advancement of these ends, the Peoplehave, at all times, an indefeasible right to alter and reform theirgovernment.


Its plain to see that Hoosiers have the inalienable right to enjoy liberty and pursue happiness. A valid form of liberty and pursuing happiness might be a person brewing his own alcohol and selling it on Sunday to his neighbors from a home-based storefront without needing a license.

Clearly, both the legislature and the courts disagree with you personal interpretation. You are free, however, to protest, agitate....whatever it takes to get the law changed. Didn't happen this session.....does not mean it never will.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

this includes the "general police power" to regulate alcohol sales. It existed before the federal or state constitutions.

If there is no victim, then there is no crime. And if there is no crime, how can the police be legitimately involved? I'm not buying into this "general police power to regulate." Of course, the silliness of the Commerce Clause at the Federal level since Wickard v. Filburn is equally repugnant to me.

The Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution, as amended by the Bill of Rights are the supreme law of the land. While potentially historically interesting, any Federal/state/territorial/provincial laws predating them are clearly no longer in force and that includes any sort of "general police power." It is perfectly legal for the gov't to tax alcohol and enforce tax code, but anything further than that gets into serious issues of constitutionality. I don't see how banning Sunday alcohol sales relates to the power to tax, and I don't see any victims being created by allowing Sunday alcohol sales, so...QED.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

And if there is no crime, how can the police be legitimately involved?

Because the legislature defines the crime. If the statute does not impact a fundamental constitutional right or other constitutional provision (void for vagueness, ex post facto, inter alia, then it is a crime.

The states have fairly broad authority as to statutes they can pass, e.g. requiring everyone to wear a red hat.

I'm not buying into this "general police power to regulate."

That's the Constitutional structure, see, e.g. Tenth Amendment.

Of course, the silliness of the Commerce Clause at the Federal level since Wickard v. Filburn is equally repugnant to me.

I don't think anywhere here would not agree that the Commerce Clause has been transformed into the big hammer of unlimited federal power, it is not federal power that is at issue here. At issue is whether it is appropriate policy to ban Sunday sales (with numerous exceptions) by a state.

While potentially historically interesting, any Federal/state/territorial/provincial laws predating them are clearly no longer in force and that includes any sort of "general police power."

The general police power comes from the text and structure of the Constitution.

It is perfectly legal for the gov't to tax alcohol and enforce tax code, but anything further than that gets into serious issues of constitutionality.

How so?

I don't see how banning Sunday alcohol sales relates to the power to tax

It does not. It relates to the authority of the state to exercise its general police powers.

 

[HoughMade]

"General police powers" as a concept (and a reality) have only a tangential relationship to "police officers". One word, different applications.

In any event, it's popular (or around here it seems, populist) to claim that any government action you believe is ill advised is unconstitutional. Some is, much is not.

Sunday alcohol sales? States have the inherent power to regulate alcohol sales, they just do, not because I say so, but because the history and structure of the state (and federal) constitution, as well as precedent say they do. That power may be exercised arbitrarily at which point there may be a constitutional issue, but that has not been found as to this issue.

Getting a law changed can take time and effort, but it's been done many, many times....by people other than judges.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

States have the inherent power to regulate alcohol sales, they just do, not because I say so, but because the history and structure of the state (and federal) constitution, as well as precedent say they do.

I have read all the founding documents of the INGO Constitution--The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, The Probability Broach and the American Zone--and I do not see where it authorizes the State of Indiana to regulate alcohol.

 

[PistolBob]

 

[kludge]

It's mostly driven by the liquor industry. They want their day off and they're not about to lose sales to places that are open 24/7.

The "conservatives" that won't "actively oppose" Sunday sales but won't work to change it don't help either.

^this. end of story. sunday is the biggest grocery store day, and most liquor stores would go out of business as a result.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Kirk and Hough, thank you for your thoughtful replies. I am not a lawyer, so clearly I have some more reading to do. It just doesn't sit well with me when the gov't can tell people they can't do something (or conversely, are required to do something i.e. the ACA aka ObamaCare), when said activity (or lack of activity) does not harm or inconvenience another person. Gov't actions like what we are discussing seem very contrary to our founding principles when gov't is supposed to be instituted to protect the rights of the people. Ideally, and speaking in very broad terms, I see gov't acting as a referee among people and groups domestically, and protecting us from foreign intervention/invasion internationally. There is more the gov't can do of course (thinking of things like infrastructure), but those are the two main purposes that I see, especially as envisioned by our Founders.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It just doesn't sit well with me when the gov't can tell people they can't do something (or conversely, are required to do something i.e. the ACA aka ObamaCare), when said activity (or lack of activity) does not harm or inconvenience another person

Which as a matter of policy is a perfectly cogent position.

There is policy and there is the constitution. The federal and state constitution say that the state of Indiana can tell you not to buy booze on Sunday. Then there is the question of SHOULD it.

 

[Woobie]

They HAVE to let you buy beer on Sunday, it's state law. If you don't believe me, you can ask mom Phyllis. I gotta go...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I gotta go...

. . . to Court 7?

 

[Woobie]

. . . to Court 7?

Shut up, Randy!

 

[actaeon277]

View attachment 36475

No kidding.

 

[rambone]

States have police powers, yes.

However, those powers cannot conflict with other guaranteed rights. Rights such as "liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

The only way our state can ban basic human interactions (like exchanging cash for beverages) without running afoul of the first line in its charter, is if "liberty and the pursuit of happiness" does not include selling one's own property and interacting with one's neighbors.

Is that what you believe, Hough and Kirk? Liberty is not infringed through bans on selling property? Free markets and Liberty do not go hand in hand?

You can't have it both ways. Either (1) Liberty includes the ability to sell property; or (2) Liberty and Free Markets are completely unrelated and completely separable.

There is no logical middle ground.

 

[atvdave]

They HAVE to let you buy beer on Sunday, it's state law. If you don't believe me, you can ask mom Phyllis. I gotta go...

. . . to Court 7?

Shut up, Randy!

what to buy a boat?

 

[rambone]

Solution: The state could repeal Article 1, Section 1. Tell the people that they do not enjoy liberty and are not guaranteed the right to pursue happiness. Then there would be no confusion. That would be logical and honest.

The current system is a Frankenstein monster of broken promises and broken logic. "Sure, you have liberty... but not the liberty to control your property or your beverage choices."

 

[Woobie]

what to buy a boat?

Nope, to sell one. You wouldn't be looking for one would you?

 

[HoughMade]

Solution: The state could repeal Article 1, Section 1. Tell the people that they do not enjoy liberty and are not guaranteed the right to pursue happiness. Then there would be no confusion. That would be logical and honest.

The current system is a Frankenstein monster of broken promises and broken logic. "Sure, you have liberty... but not the liberty to control your property or your beverage choices."

That would require an act of the Legislature.....from what I can surmise, we don't much care for that around here.

 

[bmiley1963]

I believe that most liquor stores are open to at least midnight on Saturday. A little planning and you won't have to do with out. To sum it up, I don't care whether we sell on Sunday or not. I think we have spent too much time and money on this issue when there are other things we should be focused on in our state. Just my opinion!