Going to have to agree
-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
Do you know your trigger responsibility
- Thread starter yotewacker
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IN_Sheepdog
Expert
Love threads like this. Reminds me of Law School Hypotheticals without the Crim Law Professor giving you crap over every possible scenario... Socratic method...sigh...
Anyway, the above is correct in regard to the 21 feet not being codified. This comes out of the testing done by a police firearms instructor, named Tueller, hense the name "Tueller Drill" in which it was determined an assailant could reach an officer before fully drawing a sidearm and causing serious injury within this 21 ft radius. However this is highly dependendent on individual circumstances and is only a guideline. For example, how does this change if the assailant is 55 yrs old and weighs 300 lbs, versus a 23 yr old slim crack head? Obviously, the ability to mount an attack varies considerably, and therefore there is no hard and fast rule as to what is a 'safe' distance... and why a hard and fast brightline rule like 21 ft is not applicable... There again... situational awareness...
Secondly, note that the Tueller Drill is done with LEO's carrying their weapon in OWB belt carry, fully accessible, and expecting the attack. Compare this to a surprise situation, where you are carrying in "deep concealment" as in under a shirt sweatshirt or even one of the inner belly bands... The distance would change dramatically.
The standard in Indiana is what would a REASONABLE person in a similar situation and circumstances do or be capable of in those conditions... Do not think just because someone is within a 20 foot circle (or 21, whose to measure it) that it necessarily justifies drawing or not drawing a weapon...
Disclaimer: This post is subjective opinion and commentary only, and is not intended to be considered legal advice nor establishing an attorney client relationship with any reader.
Anyway, the above is correct in regard to the 21 feet not being codified. This comes out of the testing done by a police firearms instructor, named Tueller, hense the name "Tueller Drill" in which it was determined an assailant could reach an officer before fully drawing a sidearm and causing serious injury within this 21 ft radius. However this is highly dependendent on individual circumstances and is only a guideline. For example, how does this change if the assailant is 55 yrs old and weighs 300 lbs, versus a 23 yr old slim crack head? Obviously, the ability to mount an attack varies considerably, and therefore there is no hard and fast rule as to what is a 'safe' distance... and why a hard and fast brightline rule like 21 ft is not applicable... There again... situational awareness...
Secondly, note that the Tueller Drill is done with LEO's carrying their weapon in OWB belt carry, fully accessible, and expecting the attack. Compare this to a surprise situation, where you are carrying in "deep concealment" as in under a shirt sweatshirt or even one of the inner belly bands... The distance would change dramatically.
The standard in Indiana is what would a REASONABLE person in a similar situation and circumstances do or be capable of in those conditions... Do not think just because someone is within a 20 foot circle (or 21, whose to measure it) that it necessarily justifies drawing or not drawing a weapon...
Disclaimer: This post is subjective opinion and commentary only, and is not intended to be considered legal advice nor establishing an attorney client relationship with any reader.
AndersonIN
Master
I heard this also...............from Donnie Baker, I swear to God I did!
Why don't the Mod's start deleting ANYTHING that says "it is written"......"but I don't know where"!
Rep'd for being the first to call BS
iChokePeople
Master
- Feb 11, 2011
- 4,556
- 48
I'm interested in reading one of the attorneys' (or other educated) on the question of who's going to jail when you, the citizen, kill someone in this scenario. Yeah, I get the fact that anyone could be sued any time, but I'm more interested in the criminal side and on the notion that the death occurred as a fairly predictable result of the commission of a felony.
On the knives and distances, I'd have to say to hell with measuring, if I feel threatened by your knife and I don't immediately think of other, better options, you're very likely to see what I'm carrying today.
On the knives and distances, I'd have to say to hell with measuring, if I feel threatened by your knife and I don't immediately think of other, better options, you're very likely to see what I'm carrying today.
That is a very good class to take! Many here on INGO have taken it and the atty who teachs it is also a member here.
In regards to a bystander suieing you for seeing your gun and you not doing anything. In Indiana ANYONE can sue you for ANYTHING. Does it have merits is a different story. Also there are 2 realms to consider in this and every other situation. CRIMINAL and CIVIL.
For example.
Say you do indeed shot the hostage cause in the arm becuase you are such a good marksman that the bullet goes trhu the hostage in into the neck of the BG which ends up killing him.
Have you committed a crime? Depends on how the prosecutor wants to work it. Chance are you won't go to crimal for a criminal offense since. However that hostage may sue you CIVIL court for shooting them even though you saved his/hr life. Also the family of the BG may SUE you as well. Heck if the bank had a NO FIREARMS sign they may sue you as well for damage to their bank carpet since it's all bloody.
You see the point there? Anyone can sue you for anything?
Now back to the by-stander that saw your gun and you did not act. Sue away you are under no legal obligation to act in this situation. You are not an LEO or bank security. Heck you can just agure I was frozen as I was in fear of my life and most reasonable people would be. As someone already stated a counter sue for all legal fees for teh person that sued you should be in order.
BTW IANAL and THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVISE!
Correct sort of. I think what the other poster has in mind in regards to you NOT being accountable for the dead of someone you shot since you did not start this is the level of charges you will face.
In the scenario th BG has a hostage (say your kid), you act to shot him and hit the teller (who dies), the BG shoots and misses as well. police arrive and take down (to the gound he is still alive) the BG.
The BG is going to be charged with bank robbery, kidnapping, use of deadly force and for the DEATH of the teller since his original acctions of robbing the bank cuase this chain reaction.
You, however, will also get charged for the death of the teller but under a lesser chanrge. I don't know all the terms it was not murder, but accidental manslighter maybe. I think that is what the othe rposter was trying to get across.
Why don't the Mod's start deleting ANYTHING that says "it is written"......"but I don't know where"!
Rep'd for being the first to call BS
Because this is a forum where opionions/discussions are done. It's not a LAW class or some court system. It's so people can learn and share what they may or may not know. It is up to each of us to take the info, verify it or question it for it's facts/revelance.
ElsiePeaRN
Expert
Now, I know I'm being silly suggesting that logic prevails, Buuut...
I think it is a far more likely scenario that someone would bring a civil suit if I shot at the BG and hit them by accident rather than, as the OP stated, they saw I had a gun and didn't use it. The latter case would never see the courtroom IMO.
Indy_Guy_77
Grandmaster
- Apr 30, 2008
- 16,576
- 48
I'm generally not one to quote entire posts, but this one deserves it. Many times. FANTASTIC POST, sir.
I heard this also...............from Donnie Baker, I swear to God I did!
A Donnie Baker reference did cross my mind...
...-J-
yotewacker
Expert
- Feb 25, 2009
- 975
- 18
IN_Sheepdog Thanks for the help with the 21ft rule.
Yes, this is indeed what I had in mind when I wrote my post. I have read of situations where one criminal is charged with the death of his/her accomplice when they died in the progression of the crime, and it seems like similar logic would apply here. I agree that you are legally responsible for every round that comes out of your gun, but the robber is responsible for the situation. There is a difference between what is right and what is lawful in this situation. I would have a hard time convicting someone for reacting when the intention was to save life, not to take it.
This.
At first I was going to disagree with the last part, because for some reason I thought you were saying that if the robber grabbed Mini's best friend you wouldn't do anything(
), but you were just saying that her SA is horrible.But, OTOH, my son's friends are 6 and younger(all of which are MY best friend's kids) and they all call me "Uncle Ben" or "Uncle Benny," so you can bet your ass if someone tried to harm any of them in my presence, it would be the biggest mistake of their life.
Correct. MiniBFF is officially part of my pack. Dumb as a box of rocks...but still one of mine by choice.
IN_Sheepdog
Expert
Great discussion all: It is better to discuss and note these important responsibilities, BEFORE you are in such a situation.
It seems most of the discussion here revolves around the Felony Murder rule. That is, that a BG in the course of committing a felony, someone is seriously injured or dies... This can be totally unintentional on anyones part including the BG. Lets say for example, BG has a hostage as you describe and is walking backwards with the hostage held around the neck. He is not looking behind as they walk and as a result hits a step wherein both he AND the hostage slip and fall. However, where BG catches himself, the unaware Hostage falls backward hitting their head on a.... filing cabinet...floor...step... whatever... and subsequently dies... The bad guy is going to be charged not only with the robbery, but under the Felony Murder rule... This is controlled by the following statutes... (sorry for the long post...)
IC 35-42-1-1
Murder
Sec. 1. A person who:
(1) knowingly or intentionally kills another human being;
(2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct, kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human trafficking, sexual trafficking of a minor, or carjacking;
(3) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit:
(A) dealing in or manufacturing cocaine or a narcotic drug (IC 35-48-4-1);
(B) dealing in or manufacturing methamphetamine (IC 35-48-4-1.1);
(C) dealing in a schedule I, II, or III controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-2);
(D) dealing in a schedule IV controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-3); or
(E) dealing in a schedule V controlled substance; or
(4) knowingly or intentionally kills a fetus that has attained viability (as defined in IC 16-18-2-365);
commits murder, a felony.
IC 35-42-5-1
Robbery
Sec. 1. A person who knowingly or intentionally takes property from another person or from the presence of another person:
(1) by using or threatening the use of force on any person; or
(2) by putting any person in fear;
commits robbery, a Class C felony. However, the offense is a Class B felony if it is committed while armed with a deadly weapon or results in bodily injury to any person other than a defendant, and a Class A felony if it results in serious bodily injury to any person other than a defendant.
This is fairly standardized in many cases in that if the BG takes it upon themselves to commit the felony, then THEY are going to be responsible for WHATEVER subsequently happens during the commission of the felony.
While this part is pretty clear as to the BG, The Problem comes into it, when you are bringing a 3rd party into the scenario. (That's you) The issue is based not only on self defense, but the defense of others which is a grayer area of the law, especially when it involves someone OTHER than an immediate family member... There are two separate issues involved... Criminal Liability, and Civil Liability. While previous posters have stated "YOu can be sued for anything and everything" that might be true in CIVIL court, and if things go badly and they have strong lawyers, (note I said Strong, not "good" ...) you could likely end up in a civil lawsuit. How this is going to go is entirely dependent on circumstances, opportunity, intent, availability of lesser alternatives other than the use of deadly force etc.
Whether the charge is taken up in Criminal liability is the part underlined at the top... knowingly or intentionally... It is fairly obvious that this part would not apply to a 3rd party if the bank teller was accidentially hit in an exchange. There was no INTENT on the part of the 3rd party (You again) to knowingly shoot the bank teller... I am NOT a prosecutor however so an overly aggressive DA, might try to make such a case, but that is pretty difficult to show...
The bottom line is this... much like any arm chair quarterbacking, there are going to be those that will question EVERYTHING you did or did not do, in excruciating detail taking many minutes or hours to explain or describe what typically is a situation that happens in a matter of SECONDS!
IMO, It is highly unlikely that a bystander is going to be able to sue you for omission, or not acting in a situation, as you as a private citizen have no DUTY to act or not act. Merely having the means to act, does not place a person with the responsibility to act... In any situation, you have to consider, what would the "reasonable" person, under these circumstances do? Often the outcome is highly dependent on what this subjective term comes to be defined for a given situation.
The instantaneous decision made, (and the one you will have to live with for the rest of your life, one way or another) is whether you can take that decision and responsibility. While as gun owners we might dwell on the whole "what would you do" discussions, and for intellectual discussions is very instructive, the person who can say unequivocally what they would do, has likely not had the situation occur, and it is only a guess.
For one alternative example, assume it WAS one of your own, the BG is holding hostage. Now imagine, as you take that shot, the wife, child, friend, coworker, whatever, moves or is moved by the BG, and as a result it is YOUR bullet that kills your own. Maybe the BG would have let them go later... What if they would have been able to later break free and escape. What if, what if, what if, ... Now consider that decision is made and taken in less time than it takes to read this paragraph alone... Sobering thought, isnt it? You bet...
Ultimately, there is a certain bravado expressed sometimes in the idea of protecting yourself and others. But we all have to be constantly mindful that in real life, sometimes the good guys DONT win... That is the tremendously heavy burden and responsibility we as gun carrying law abiding citizens have taken upon ourselves. It is not one that anyone should take on lightly...
Disclaimer: This posting is opinion, and for discussion only and should not be considered legal advice,or legal opinion nor does it establish an attorney-client relationship with any reader.
It seems most of the discussion here revolves around the Felony Murder rule. That is, that a BG in the course of committing a felony, someone is seriously injured or dies... This can be totally unintentional on anyones part including the BG. Lets say for example, BG has a hostage as you describe and is walking backwards with the hostage held around the neck. He is not looking behind as they walk and as a result hits a step wherein both he AND the hostage slip and fall. However, where BG catches himself, the unaware Hostage falls backward hitting their head on a.... filing cabinet...floor...step... whatever... and subsequently dies... The bad guy is going to be charged not only with the robbery, but under the Felony Murder rule... This is controlled by the following statutes... (sorry for the long post...)
IC 35-42-1-1
Murder
Sec. 1. A person who:
(1) knowingly or intentionally kills another human being;
(2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct, kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human trafficking, sexual trafficking of a minor, or carjacking;
(3) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit:
(A) dealing in or manufacturing cocaine or a narcotic drug (IC 35-48-4-1);
(B) dealing in or manufacturing methamphetamine (IC 35-48-4-1.1);
(C) dealing in a schedule I, II, or III controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-2);
(D) dealing in a schedule IV controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-3); or
(E) dealing in a schedule V controlled substance; or
(4) knowingly or intentionally kills a fetus that has attained viability (as defined in IC 16-18-2-365);
commits murder, a felony.
IC 35-42-5-1
Robbery
Sec. 1. A person who knowingly or intentionally takes property from another person or from the presence of another person:
(1) by using or threatening the use of force on any person; or
(2) by putting any person in fear;
commits robbery, a Class C felony. However, the offense is a Class B felony if it is committed while armed with a deadly weapon or results in bodily injury to any person other than a defendant, and a Class A felony if it results in serious bodily injury to any person other than a defendant.
This is fairly standardized in many cases in that if the BG takes it upon themselves to commit the felony, then THEY are going to be responsible for WHATEVER subsequently happens during the commission of the felony.
While this part is pretty clear as to the BG, The Problem comes into it, when you are bringing a 3rd party into the scenario. (That's you) The issue is based not only on self defense, but the defense of others which is a grayer area of the law, especially when it involves someone OTHER than an immediate family member... There are two separate issues involved... Criminal Liability, and Civil Liability. While previous posters have stated "YOu can be sued for anything and everything" that might be true in CIVIL court, and if things go badly and they have strong lawyers, (note I said Strong, not "good" ...) you could likely end up in a civil lawsuit. How this is going to go is entirely dependent on circumstances, opportunity, intent, availability of lesser alternatives other than the use of deadly force etc.
Whether the charge is taken up in Criminal liability is the part underlined at the top... knowingly or intentionally... It is fairly obvious that this part would not apply to a 3rd party if the bank teller was accidentially hit in an exchange. There was no INTENT on the part of the 3rd party (You again) to knowingly shoot the bank teller... I am NOT a prosecutor however so an overly aggressive DA, might try to make such a case, but that is pretty difficult to show...
The bottom line is this... much like any arm chair quarterbacking, there are going to be those that will question EVERYTHING you did or did not do, in excruciating detail taking many minutes or hours to explain or describe what typically is a situation that happens in a matter of SECONDS!
IMO, It is highly unlikely that a bystander is going to be able to sue you for omission, or not acting in a situation, as you as a private citizen have no DUTY to act or not act. Merely having the means to act, does not place a person with the responsibility to act... In any situation, you have to consider, what would the "reasonable" person, under these circumstances do? Often the outcome is highly dependent on what this subjective term comes to be defined for a given situation.
The instantaneous decision made, (and the one you will have to live with for the rest of your life, one way or another) is whether you can take that decision and responsibility. While as gun owners we might dwell on the whole "what would you do" discussions, and for intellectual discussions is very instructive, the person who can say unequivocally what they would do, has likely not had the situation occur, and it is only a guess.
For one alternative example, assume it WAS one of your own, the BG is holding hostage. Now imagine, as you take that shot, the wife, child, friend, coworker, whatever, moves or is moved by the BG, and as a result it is YOUR bullet that kills your own. Maybe the BG would have let them go later... What if they would have been able to later break free and escape. What if, what if, what if, ... Now consider that decision is made and taken in less time than it takes to read this paragraph alone... Sobering thought, isnt it? You bet...
Ultimately, there is a certain bravado expressed sometimes in the idea of protecting yourself and others. But we all have to be constantly mindful that in real life, sometimes the good guys DONT win... That is the tremendously heavy burden and responsibility we as gun carrying law abiding citizens have taken upon ourselves. It is not one that anyone should take on lightly...
Disclaimer: This posting is opinion, and for discussion only and should not be considered legal advice,or legal opinion nor does it establish an attorney-client relationship with any reader.
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