Drawing a pistol - Yeager

[bwframe]

It really depends on many things I think ...
Is there 1 unarmed person getting closer to you or 5 or 6?
Are you a fit young man, a old man with a bad hip or a petite female holding a baby?
Do you have any unarmed fighting skills and martial arts experience?
Do you have any non-lethal weapons on you and do you have enough time to deploy them?
How close are they from you?



I can see some situations where you would still shoot at an unarmed attacker and some other where you would try to avoid it.

This is exactly why I don't prefer the STOP command. Too much thinking to do when they don't listen.
I have used "the fence" and a one weak hand modification of it, many times successfully with people I happily didn't have to shoot.

 

[amhenry]

Burl,
Do you practice any verbalization as part of your drawstroke? I see where Coach is coming from: even if the assailant doesn't stop, it can give me an advantage, both in OODA loop disruption, and witness impression. That might sound cold to say it that way, but I really do want any advantage I can get if my life is on the line. If you don't practice verbalization, will you actually be silent under stress, or might you say something unhelpful?

 

[bwframe]

Burl,
Do you practice any verbalization as part of your drawstroke? I see where Coach is coming from: even if the assailant doesn't stop, it can give me an advantage, both in OODA loop disruption, and witness impression. That might sound cold to say it that way, but I really do want any advantage I can get if my life is on the line. If you don't practice verbalization, will you actually be silent under stress, or might you say something unhelpful?

Nope, they have already been warned (ferociously,) before I drew.
I would actually question that yelling "STOP," instantly followed by shots fired, might actually be unhelpful in a questionable self defense shooting?

 

[Double T]

 

[Coach]

Why would I be drawing my gun on an unarmed man?
Observers can say he told him to stop and he did not.
My first priority is to prevail.
The law does not require you to be perfect, it requires you to be reasonable.

 

[Josh Ward]

I'm with Shooter on this one, if/when the time comes to go to guns, the time for talk is OVER, its time to put rounds into the threat. I want my brain focused on "front sight press" not yelling silly **** at him

 

[esrice]

Great discussion so far.

One of the instructors I've trained with who recommended this was an acolyte of Farnam's. Farnam has been in the biz long enough that it's entirely possible Yeager also cribbed it from him.

Yeager wasn't shy about giving credit to those who came up with the stuff, and Farnam's name came up frequently.

How long were you trained to pause after yelling "STOP!" to determine whether or not the badguy complied?

Because STOP is verbalized in conjunction with moving and drawing there is some amount of time to assess compliance. But like I said before I can certainly think of times when yelling STOP wouldn't make any sense or even be wise.

And although STOP was yelled with every draw, not every draw ended with gunfire. For example, when a student needed to perform an administrative task (Tactical Response actually doesn't believe in or use the word "administrative" when referencing gun-handling) they had to go to the firing line and perform the whole 'routine' first. So move off the X, yell STOP, draw, aim in, not shoot, access, scan, top off. And you were nicely heckled if your STOP wasn't forceful and authoritative.

In a live-fire course I'm not sure how one would really train for compliance from a cardboard target. As you mentioned, FoF is GREAT for adding decision making into the mix.

To that, I would add that one needs to practice for that eventuality, as well. IOW, be careful what you make reflexive through repetition in training.

I find that many of the debates on training and tactics revolve around that scale--with total non-diagnostic reflex on one end and fluid flexible thinking on the other. Personally I think there's a balance to be struck.

 

[Double T]

What about the times that presentation of a gun makes the BG stop? (rare I know) I would rather not have to shoot anyone, but if I draw it IS to stop a threat. What if they stop when you draw?

Pretty good thought invoking stuff here people

 

[The Bubba Effect]

This reminds me of all the discussion over the Trayvon Martin shooting regarding the audio recording and the attempt to identify which party was yelling for help.

 

[Ridgeway]

Anyone have thoughts on the draw stroke taught by TR (and quite a few others) as compared to something more abbreviated, such as Ron Avery displayed in his video w/Cory & Erika?

Avery seemed to opine that the stroke in the video's here is excessively deliberate in proceeding straight up & then out.

 

[shooter521]

Anyone have thoughts on the draw stroke taught by TR (and quite a few others) as compared to something more abbreviated, such as Ron Avery displayed in his video w/Cory & Erika?

Avery seemed to opine that the stroke in the video's here is excessively deliberate in proceeding straight up & then out.

I was taught the 4-count drawstroke before it was "cool". It has worked well for me, and has become so ingrained through training and repetition over the years, that I would be hard-pressed to adopt something else at this point.