[Elkhart] Wrongfully detained for legally carrying a handgun

[Xenokilla]

Sorry if this is the wrong area to post this.

This happened to a friend of mine: http://youtu.be/kgKRBi1H1PM

 

[Mark 1911]

Ongoing thread about an illegal OC stop which is being challenged by lawsuit. Maybe your friend could retire early?

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general_firearms_discussion/294900-oc_stop.html

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

 

[Marksman]

From a police point of view, better be safe than sorry. But I will be mad as well if that happens to me (about to submit my LTCH app) just moved from IL so i only have a FOID

 

[Fishersjohn48]

Wow, two instances in the same day.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...detain_andrew_champ_for_legally_carrying.html

 

[88GT]

From a police point of view, better be safe than sorry. But I will be mad as well if that happens to me (about to submit my LTCH app) just moved from IL so i only have a FOID

Police hell. Why can't the citizens disarm each other if it's a safety issue?

 

[alexanjl12]

Tell your friend to check and make sure he still has his wallet!

 

[SMiller]

Tell your friend to check and make sure he still has his wallet!

Boom...

 

[Bapak2ja]

Are Indiana residents legally required to show LTCH if asked or do the LEOs need cause/suspicion that the OC person is about to commit a crime?

I think I read a recent appellate court decision that OC is not sufficient cause for a person to be detained. If that is correct, these officers in Elkhart violated the law. However, if the LTCH must be presented on demand then the officers were within their legal responsibilities to ask for the LTCH and the man was required to show it.

I understand that we must show the LTCH upon demand in Indiana. Can our helpful legal beagles confirm this for me?

 

[cp009]

Tell your buddy to contact Guy.

Once your LTCH is shown then anything pertaining to a firearm should immediately be stopped.

 

[Xenokilla]

we're both friend with andrew.

 

[lonehoosier]

Are Indiana residents legally required to show LTCH if asked or do the LEOs need cause/suspicion that the OC person is about to commit a crime?

I think I read a recent appellate court decision that OC is not sufficient cause for a person to be detained. If that is correct, these officers in Elkhart violated the law. However, if the LTCH must be presented on demand then the officers were within their legal responsibilities to ask for the LTCH and the man was required to show it.

I understand that we must show the LTCH upon demand in Indiana. Can our helpful legal beagles confirm this for me?

Check out this threads.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...tain_andrew_champ_for_legally_carrying-7.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...rry_stop_fourth_circuit_agrees_with_me-4.html

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without being licensed; exceptions; person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun.

In my opinion LEO has the power/authority in Indiana to stop you and ask for your LTCH if you are OC/CC a handgun. It is illegal for someone to carry a hand gun with out a LTCH in Indiana. Also my opinion is that court ruling only applies to the states that have open carry with out a license/permit.

 

[daddymikey1975]

Are Indiana residents legally required to show LTCH if asked or do the LEOs need cause/suspicion that the OC person is about to commit a crime?

I think I read a recent appellate court decision that OC is not sufficient cause for a person to be detained. If that is correct, these officers in Elkhart violated the law. However, if the LTCH must be presented on demand then the officers were within their legal responsibilities to ask for the LTCH and the man was required to show it.

I understand that we must show the LTCH upon demand in Indiana. Can our helpful legal beagles confirm this for me?

As was previously posted, it is illegal to carry a handgun in the state of Indiana without being licensed. An officer may legally detain you long enough to determine if you are licensed. You are not required to be in possession of your LTCH, but things may be easier if you are in possession, to prove that you are licensed. Once an officer determines that you are licensed (however he does that) all questions SHOULD cease.

An officer may not legally seize your sidearm unless he has a reasonable articulable suspicion (spelling ? ) that you are an immediate danger. Simply carrying a handgun does not provide this R.A.S. alone. There must be extenuating circumstances.

IANAL and did not stay at holiday Inn last night.

 

[DC47374]

Unless I'm missing something (some audio was difficult to hear)....the cop asked for his LTCH which he initially didn't provide. I thought the cop acted very professional and seemed very down to earth (absent of a power trip). It is the law (unless I'm mistaken) that you must provide your LTCH upon request....if you refuse at that point you can be detained until your status is verified.

 

[daddymikey1975]

Unless I'm missing something (some audio was difficult to hear)....the cop asked for his LTCH which he initially didn't provide. I thought the cop acted very professional and seemed very down to earth (absent of a power trip). It is the law (unless I'm mistaken) that you must provide your LTCH upon request....if you refuse at that point you can be detained until your status is verified.

Please show me where the law states that you're required to be in possession (show) the LTCH. I read in the IC that you're required to BE licensed, but not BE IN POSSESSION of the license.

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without being licensed; exceptions; person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun.
(b) Except as provided in subsection (c), a person may carry a handgun without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun if:
(1) the person carries the handgun on or about the person's body in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by the person;
(2) the person carries the handgun on or about the person's body while lawfully present in or on property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the person:
(A) has the consent of the owner, renter, lessor, or person who legally controls the property to have the handgun on the premises;
(B) is attending a firearms related event on the property, including a gun show, firearms expo, gun owner's club or convention, hunting club, shooting club, or training course; or
(C) is on the property to receive firearms related services, including the repair, maintenance, or modification of a firearm;
(3) the person carries the handgun in a vehicle that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by the person, if the handgun is:
(A) unloaded;
(B) not readily accessible; and
(C) secured in a case;
(4) the person carries the handgun while lawfully present in a vehicle that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise legally controlled by another person, if the handgun is:
(A) unloaded;
(B) not readily accessible; and
(C) secured in a case; or
(5) the person carries the handgun:
(A) at a shooting range (as defined in IC 14-22-31.5-3);
(B) while attending a firearms instructional course; or
(C) while engaged in a legal hunting activity.
(c) Unless the person's right to possess a firearm has been restored under IC 35-47-4-7, a person who has been convicted of domestic battery under IC 35-42-2-1.3 may not possess or carry a handgun.
(d) This section may be not construed:
(1) to prohibit a person who owns, leases, rents, or otherwise legally controls private property from regulating or prohibiting the possession of firearms on the private property;
(2) to allow a person to adopt or enforce an ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule that:
(A) prohibits; or
(B) has the effect of prohibiting;
an employee of the person from possessing a firearm or ammunition that is locked in the trunk of the employee's vehicle, kept in the glove compartment of the employee's locked vehicle, or stored out of plain sight in the employee's locked vehicle, unless the person's adoption or enforcement of the ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule is allowed under IC 34-28-7-2(b); or
(3) to allow a person to adopt or enforce a law, statute, ordinance, resolution, policy, or rule that allows a person to possess or transport a firearm or ammunition if the person is prohibited from possessing or transporting the firearm or ammunition by state or federal law.

 

[DC47374]

OK ... DM...that would mean that he would have to provide identification...which again it's difficult to hear....but it seems as if he failed to do that.

 

[cobber]

As was previously posted, it is illegal to carry a handgun in the state of Indiana without being licensed.
[snip]
An officer may not legally seize your sidearm unless he has a reasonable articulable suspicion (spelling ? ) that you are an immediate danger. Simply carrying a handgun does not provide this R.A.S. alone. There must be extenuating circumstances.

IANAL and did not stay at holiday Inn last night.

The RS comes from carrying a handgun. The officer may stop under Terry to investigate. If the officer has reason to believe that you are armed and dangerous, he can do a cursory pat-down for weapons.

Check Embody. At least in the 6th Cir. an officer may detain and disarm to check for a violation. Indiana courts would probably look to the 'totality of circumstances'. Don't hold your breath expecting a court to find this contrary to the federal or State constitutions. But it could happen...

Please show me where the law states that you're required to be in possession (show) the LTCH. I read in the IC that you're required to BE licensed, but not BE IN POSSESSION of the license.

You aren't required to be in possession. But if you aren't, and you refuse to identify, you aren't giving the officer much choice...

 

[Bill B]

Nice little catch 22 isn't it? You cannot be required to ID if you are suspected of a crime, but the affirmative defense against this particular crime is....ID yourself.

 

[daddymikey1975]

You aren't required to be in possession. But if you aren't, and you refuse to identify, you aren't giving the officer much choice...

That's kinda what I was getting at.

I would choose to offer up the LTCH (if I had it with me).. and if not, I'd at least give them name and DOB so they can verify that I'm exempt from that part of the IC.

Anything else is up for debate

 

[daddymikey1975]

Nice little catch 22 isn't it? You cannot be required to ID if you are suspected of a crime, but the affirmative defense against this particular crime is....ID yourself.

Technically, the affirmative defense is to 'be licensed'... how one chooses to verify that they are licensed is up to them. They may provide the officer with the LTCH (which is kinda 'not' identification.. of sorts) OR they can ID themselves..

That being said.. it IS a nasty catch 22.