Exceeding max load reccomemdations?

[Mgderf]

Talking to a customer of mine the other day. Told him I just picked up an IMI Desert Eagle in .44mag.

He told me he has one too. Says he's been hunting white-tail with it for years, and he always loads OVER the reccomended max loads!???!

He says the Desert Eagle is built like a tank, and it takes a heavy magnum load to "make them run right..." He told me that I should "start at the max load listed, and work my way up from there..."

I've not yet started to reload. I have several manuals, a few dies, a press, ...

I've begun to read, but I'm not quite ready to "roll my own" yet. EVERYTHING I've read, and everyone I've talked to that I know reload say NEVER exceed the max load data.

This guy IS nuts, isn't he?

 

[rockhopper46038]

Almost certainly. There's a chance, I suppose, that he is skilled enough to calculate the pressures involved in his pet loads and compare them against the true yield strength of the material used in construction of the Desert Eagle; but it's far, far more likely that he's playing a dangerous game I don't wish to play.

 

[rimfire_crazed]

Factory .44 mag ammo is pretty darned hot.

In certain configurations, the .44 can be pushed harder than that - the case capacity is there. I've definitely exceeded Max in a break action rifle. I likely would not do so in a handgun or a semi-auto rifle. I'd have to look up my
exact charges but I've done it with both 5744 and 2400.

 

[42769vette]

i have a lot of loads that are over book max. most of the time the books are pretty cautious. that said i have never 1 time and will never start at max. always work up from the bottom and stop when you see pressure.

look at it this way starting from the bottom and working up will cost you a extra 5-10 bucks in components. how much will it cost if you go to high on the first load?

 

[smileman]

whats the pay off and whats the risk? 125fps extra or at best a $1200.00 paper weight, at worst a .44mag slide in your eye socket

 

[sloughfoot]

If he is making ammo for himself? I could not care less how hot it is.

I have seen the maximum published loads reduced every time a new edition is published. He could very well be using a maximum load from an earlier manual.

Besides most of the best loads for the 44 magnum use powders like W296, H110, and 2400. Increasing charges above maximum really does not have a huge effect on gas operated semi autos like the Desert Eagle.

Just don't hand me one of his thermo-nuclear loads to shoot out of one of my guns..... I will pass on that...

 

[tv1217]

He is confusing the Desert Eagle with a Ruger Super Redhawk

 

[shibumiseeker]

I occasionally exceed maximum published load data for some of my rounds for certain applications. But it is NOT something a beginner should EVER do as there are a whole lot of subtleties that you have to have the experience to know about and look for. I fully am aware that I run a significant risk when I load my nuclear rounds, and that while you may be able to get away with it from time to time, the gun was designed to shoot SAAMI spec ammo with some overengineering as a safety margin and hot ammo can create stresses in the gun that won't be a problem the first few times you do it.

99% of my ammunition is loaded in the middle of the published data. For most things there really isn't any reason to push it super hot.

 

[Broom_jm]

It has been quite some time since SAAMI decreased the MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the 44 and 357 Magnum cartridges. Still, some folks insist on using the old data, "Cuz if it was safe then, it's safe now!" This is flawed logic on two counts:

1) The copper crusher measurement they used back in the old days was not as accurate, especially with lower pressure rounds, as the piezo transducer equipment used today.

2) Powders like H110, which have been around for a long time, are not necessarily made exactly as they were 30 or 40 years ago. One powder in particular, 2400, is a different formulation and old data should not be used with newer powder.

The sad thing is the guy could hunt just as effectively with his DE and standard 44 Magnum loads, but is trying to impress you by claiming he loads over maximum. When you're visiting him in the hospital after his prosthetic eyeball surgery, be sure to tell him how "cool" he is.

 

[sloughfoot]

It has been quite some time since SAAMI decreased the MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the 44 and 357 Magnum cartridges. Still, some folks insist on using the old data, "Cuz if it was safe then, it's safe now!" This is flawed logic on two counts:

1) The copper crusher measurement they used back in the old days was not as accurate, especially with lower pressure rounds, as the piezo transducer equipment used today.

2) Powders like H110, which have been around for a long time, are not necessarily made exactly as they were 30 or 40 years ago. One powder in particular, 2400, is a different formulation and old data should not be used with newer powder.

The sad thing is the guy could hunt just as effectively with his DE and standard 44 Magnum loads, but is trying to impress you by claiming he loads over maximum. When you're visiting him in the hospital after his prosthetic eyeball surgery, be sure to tell him how "cool" he is.

No way I will argue with this well reasoned argument. Well said.

 

[SSGSAD]

It has been quite some time since SAAMI decreased the MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the 44 and 357 Magnum cartridges. Still, some folks insist on using the old data, "Cuz if it was safe then, it's safe now!" This is flawed logic on two counts:

1) The copper crusher measurement they used back in the old days was not as accurate, especially with lower pressure rounds, as the piezo transducer equipment used today.

2) Powders like H110, which have been around for a long time, are not necessarily made exactly as they were 30 or 40 years ago. One powder in particular, 2400, is a different formulation and old data should not be used with newer powder.

The sad thing is the guy could hunt just as effectively with his DE and standard 44 Magnum loads, but is trying to impress you by claiming he loads over maximum. When you're visiting him in the hospital after his prosthetic eyeball surgery, be sure to tell him how "cool" he is.

Thank YOU, for this info... I am one who uses OLD manuals... just thought it was PC, or to avoid lawsuits, or "plastic guns" ... Hadn't thought about that ... I NEVER load NEAR maximum, ALWAYS load LIGHT ...

 

[kludge]

Yes, load books change, powders change, SAAMI specs change, but one thing doesn't change... there are a number of powder companies out there and they are all competing for your dollar. They are going to load it as hot as they can within the SAAMI specs, cuz if they don't, you will buy something else that gives you more performance.

That said, I would be more inclined to exceed a published rifle load than a published pistol load, due to variations in chambers and the amount of freebore. Rifles operate anywhere from 45kpsi to 65kpsi, roughly. Work hardened brass case heads, for the most part, just aren't going to flow, and several other pressure signs just aren't going to be there at pistol pressures. You will blow the cylinder and top strap off a .38 Special or .45 Colt long before you see any "pressure signs" on the brass or primers.

SAAMI proof loads are going to be (going by memory here) 30%-40% over pressure. SAAMI pressure for the .44 Mag is 36kpsi. +30%-40% is 46.8kpsi to 50.4kpsi... and it's real easy to get 45-46kpsi in a .44 Mag, putting you in proof load territory.

Also many older books list CUP instead of PSI, and you can't directly correlate the two. WRT the pressure testing, the piezo tests are capable of reading very short spikes in pressure and the copper crusher just can't do this. Many of the old "Elmer Keith" loads were found to be just too much, and as the 2400 powder he used is now different.

 

[45fan]

Something else to consider, different load manuals call for different max loads and velocities. That said, I always start with a minimum load, and work up from there. In my 44 loads, depending on the powder, I ended up with relatively mild loads. When loading H110, on the other hand, the loads tend to be right at Max recommended loads, with no intentions to go over. Best advice to a beginner, start slow (both in the process and velocities) and work carefully up. A chronograph isnt a bad idea to have too, to help verify the increases in charge, and possibly alert to dangerous conditions before you get into serious problems. Wouldnt it be silly to have a "nuclear" load that isnt safe in any gun, only to be getting another 50-100 fps over the max?

 

[Dwight D]

I agree with the consensus on max loads staying within published guidelines and the many well thought out reasons allready stated. What I will comment on is reloading for the Desert Eagle 44 mag. It is a gas operated rotating bolt design somewhat similar to an AR-15. That being said it requires a certain amount of gas for a certain amount of time to operate correctly. Sometimes referred to as port pressure or time under the curve. The DE was designed to operate with 240 gr bullets and loading lighter projectiles can be problematic getting the weapon to operate reliably. I had 2 identical Israeli made DE in 44 mag that I loaded for. I used to hunt exclusively with a Rem 180 gr in a Ruger Blackhawk pushing that bullet at 1600 fps from a 7.5 in barrel with H110. This load would not operate either gun reliably. I messed around with several powders trying to get the DE's to run and never was successful with a 180 gr bullet. 240's were no problem with full house loads. Eventually I found that a Sierra 210 gr with H110 would operate one of the 2 pistols reliably and the other one pretty close but still with the occasional jam. It was all about finding the load that had enough gas for a long enough pressure curve to operate the gas operated pistol. Perhaps a better understanding of how the gun operates will make one more successful in loading for this particular pistol.

 

[dasprung]

There is only one way to safely EXCEED maximum listed loads: you get a quality chronograph and if the velocity that YOUR particular firearm produces is still below the FPS that the listed loads produced in the manual with the SELECTED POWDER it is okay to go over the load CAREFULLY! That is of course if you don't see any obvious pressure signs, but that seems to be an art I don't have an established skill in, and most loaders don't either (despite what you read or watch on YouTube). Also understand that the velocity the chrony meausures is not at the barrel you'll have to use a ballistics software program to estimate the muzzle velocity for a particular bullet (weight and BC are important). The chronograph is the best tool you can have as a handloader and they are far less expensive than say a completely destroyed weapon that needs to be replaced because you thought it could handle higher than listed max loads.

 

[dasprung]

Also one of the best things to consider is why would you EVER need a load over max! I almost always find the best accuracy is gained close to or near the max load. Anything over is just hard on the gun. If the pistol cycles with less than max loads (and I can't imagine anyone using a Desert Eagle for anything other than just bragging rights at the target range) why waste the extra powder?

 

[shibumiseeker]

Also one of the best things to consider is why would you EVER need a load over max! I almost always find the best accuracy is gained close to or near the max load. Anything over is just hard on the gun. If the pistol cycles with less than max loads (and I can't imagine anyone using a Desert Eagle for anything other than just bragging rights at the target range) why waste the extra powder?

There are reasons for going overpressure, else we wouldn't have things like +p+ ammo. Being able to have more power in a smaller form factor is one. Just because most production guns are rated for SAAMI specs doesn't mean that a gun in that caliber that is engineered for higher pressures should be penalized when the brass and primer can handle it. My nuclear 10mm loads are used for large animal defense when I am hiking where gun size and weight are a serious consideration, and they are being shot through a gun that was modified to handle the extra power.

So yeah, it's not good practice to load over maximum, but saying you would never need to ignores very real reasons.

And the usual disclaimers apply that I wrote before: it's not something the novice reloader should do, and even experienced reloaders need to approach with caution.

 

[opus1776]

There is only one way to safely EXCEED maximum listed loads: you get a quality chronograph and if the velocity that YOUR particular firearm produces is still below the FPS that the listed loads produced in the manual with the SELECTED POWDER it is okay to go over the load CAREFULLY!.

Not quite. The ONLY safe way that I can think of is to get a pressure sensor, attach said sensor to your firearm and get the actual pressure vs. time graph. THAT would be only way to safely exceed a max load because then one would know exactly how far above SAAMI specs one is.....

If the pistol cycles with less than max loads (and I can't imagine anyone using a Desert Eagle for anything other than just bragging rights at the target range) why waste the extra powder?

I know of at least one person who got a deagle in .41 mag to hunt with. There are barrels for the desert eagle available in 10" and 14". With a longer barrel and either a .41/.44 mag load, one could hunt deer. Hell, folks have been know to hunt deer with ruger blackhawks.


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[dasprung]

I didn't say there were never any reasons to go over max, but in the case of a Desert Eagle that canon is really just a boy toy. You might be able to open carry it in places like Alaska or Montana, but if I was to use a handgun in brown bear country it wouldn't even be a handgun: it would be a rifle. That being said you make a very valid point: sometimes you want more power. But as far as +P+ ammo goes SAAMI doesn't have a standard for it (to my knowledge Overpressure ammunition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) it is a tricky subject and as you stated a new reloader should just stay with the book PERIOD. Once you get more experience than you can experiment, but is it really worth destroying the gun if you make one small mistake to many?

 

[dasprung]

Yes the pressure sensors are the most accurate way to estimate chamber pressure in a firearm but do you want to spend $500? Recreational Software, Inc.: PressureTrace & Accessories I think I would rather buy another gun for that cost. An F-1 shooting chrony is less than $100 on Midway USA