Fast Food Workers strike to DOUBLE wages.

[actaeon277]

Nope, I think they'll go down in greasy flames. I just think its nice that they are trying. Too many folks whine and snivel but never bother to take any action. If they get any concessions or not, they at least DID something.

If they DID SOMETHING, it would be night classes, apprenticeships, etc.

 

[hooky]

Most of this has already been said, but here's my cliff note version.

They're welcome to ask for whatever they want and the company is welcome to make a business decision that could very well cost them their jobs.

If you're saying that the problem is there are no other jobs to move up to, therefor it's that business's duty to pay a wage that will support a family, perhaps you should turn your ire towards the policies and politicians that are creating that problem rather than the company that owes them nothing more than a market wage.

If you're a grown ass adult with a family who thinks the 6 hours of paid training you sat through to do a job that bored teenagers quit on a regular basis entitles you to a "living wage", you should accept the fact that your parents failed you and go do something about it.

If the day ever comes when my then grown son decides that the 30 hour/week gig at subway is the high point of his career and he's going to strike to make double the money, I'll go to court and seek custody of my grandkids. Maybe I can learn from the mistakes I obviously made raising him and get it right the second time around to break the cycle of ineptitude, sloth and general dumbassery.

Let's face it. If you've been making minimum wage for an extended period of time. You've been overpaid that entire time.

 

[Suprtek]

There have been lots of arguments on both sides of this issue. It seems though that nearly all of these arguments are based on the assumption that if a law is passed to increase the minimum wage, places like fast food restaurants will have no choice but to pay the same number of employees that higher wage forever. This is not the case. Business finds a way to maintain certain profit margins or it ceases to exist. If the wage is increased, the companies that remain profitable will do so by changing the way they do things. Some of the cost may be covered by simply raising prices but not much. If they thought the market would bear higher prices, they would have already done it. As far as fast food goes, doubling their labor costs would easily justify investing a lot of money into ways to reduce that cost. Available automation technology today would easily allow a fast food place to be designed to serve the same or more volume of customers with only one or two employees. The only reason they haven't done it already is because they are able to maintain an acceptable profit margin under current conditions. Workers have every right to fight for whatever wages they see fit. They may even get it. However, if they were to get something that excessive, it is virtually guaranteed the number of available jobs would eventually drop to a level where the percentage of labor costs is near where it was before. Saying that it is wrong for minimum wage workers to have it so hard because they deserve more may or may not be true. However, it is irrelevant. When it comes to business, there is no right or wrong, deserving or undeserving, entitled or not. There is only profit and loss, success or failure, and legal or illegal.

 

[PistolBob]

There have been lots of arguments on both sides of this issue. It seems though that nearly all of these arguments are based on the assumption that if a law is passed to increase the minimum wage, places like fast food restaurants will have no choice but to pay the same number of employees that higher wage forever. This is not the case. Business finds a way to maintain certain profit margins or it ceases to exist. If the wage is increased, the companies that remain profitable will do so by changing the way they do things. Some of the cost may be covered by simply raising prices but not much. If they thought the market would bear higher prices, they would have already done it. As far as fast food goes, doubling their labor costs would easily justify investing a lot of money into ways to reduce that cost. Available automation technology today would easily allow a fast food place to be designed to serve the same or more volume of customers with only one or two employees. The only reason they haven't done it already is because they are able to maintain an acceptable profit margin under current conditions. Workers have every right to fight for whatever wages they see fit. They may even get it. However, if they were to get something that excessive, it is virtually guaranteed the number of available jobs would eventually drop to a level where the percentage of labor costs is near where it was before. Saying that it is wrong for minimum wage workers to have it so hard because they deserve more may or may not be true. However, it is irrelevant. When it comes to business, there is no right or wrong, deserving or undeserving, entitled or not. There is only profit and loss, success or failure, and legal or illegal.

Really? Ever been to Detroit?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If they DID SOMETHING, it would be night classes, apprenticeships, etc.

That easy, is it? I went to college after the military. I worked my way through school while trying to have a family life, a full time entry level job that eventually became a low level salaried position, and full time college schedule. In the end I had to travel literally half way around the world for a decent paying job. Not everyone has the resources or talent to do that.

I'm sure there are many folks in who just drifting or have no drive to be better, but really it looks like many of them are just trying to get started in life. Without the US Army and the head start that gave me, I don't know where I'd be today and I'm surely not going to judge these guys.

 

[actaeon277]

I didn't say it would be easy. I've seen single parents juggle kids, a job, and school. But they did it. They didn't just say give me double.

 

[88GT]

This thread illustrates a couple of interesting things... On one hand, we see a backlash against higher education. Why? Because for the last 20 to 30 years, we've had the idea that to get ahead, you need education to succeed pounded into us? Considering the decimation of the trades and the public's (you AND me) burning (read: brainwashed) desire for ever newer & cheaper goods that have run jobs out of the country, we've self0fulfilled this prophecy.

We can also see the annoyance with what has been termed "credentialism" by those of us who have found highly educated idiots puttering about and getting in the way of our lives. Useless degrees as far as the eye can see. When's the last time you heard lots of kids excited for STEM or saw any cultural support for STEM? The space shuttle got mothballed, and all anyone remembers is that a Toyota truck, that you can buy right now with a low APR, towed it. And yet our overlords ponder our last place finishes against countries that support that kind of education and all the wise we the people nod our heads.

Yes, we also see a class warfare mentality, probably rooted in a repressed/depressed inferiority complex for not having achieved higher education. /can't decide if purple applies

Oh, and my son loves STEM, though he wouldn't be familiar with that label. Your description of STEM is funny, but not as funny as your insinuation that it is the problem with education these days.

That easy, is it? I went to college after the military. I worked my way through school while trying to have a family life, a full time entry level job that eventually became a low level salaried position, and full time college schedule. In the end I had to travel literally half way around the world for a decent paying job.

It may not be easy, but it is that simple. Consequences to every choice. And everything is a choice. Everything.

Not everyone has the resources or talent to do that.

Then you should understand the concept of not being paid what everybody else is being paid just because. If someone is being paid X and you're not, there's probably a reason for that. More than likely, your choices someone down the line contributed to that. If the X-paying jobs required this resource or that talent, and you don't have it, for what reason should someone offer you X for the job you can do?

I'm sure there are many folks in who just drifting or have no drive to be better, but really it looks like many of them are just trying to get started in life. Without the US Army and the head start that gave me, I don't know where I'd be today and I'm surely not going to judge these guys.

You don't have to be critical in a negative manner to be honest and say that people are where they are because of the choices they made. No matter how indirect that might be. Get laid off? Consequence of the choice to work at Company Z. Working at Company Z instead of Company A that isn't laying off? Consequence of not going getting a degree/entering the wrong field/etc and so forth. I hold no one in contempt for their choices. Only their responses to the consequences of their choices.

 

[GLOCKMAN23C]

ECON 101: Everytime the .gov raises minumum wage, the cost of goods and services goes up, it makes the value of the dollar go down. Think trickle up poverty. These jobs are zero skill jobs. They do not deserve $15.00 / hour, an untrained monkey can do the job, or better yet a cleaner and low cost machine.

 

[Indy317]

Where did the "further your education" comment come from, and how it is connected to this argument? Why should they be refused the same right to unionize that everyone else has? Why is this particular class or people not allowed to want and work towards a better life for themselves?

Unions are in it for themselves. As a treasure of a union, our local doesn't get all that much in return. The parent keeps a lot, and they sure do take care of the big wigs. Thankfully the membership is voluntary, as it should be. I'm not sure if I will continue to be a member in the future. While the dues aren't all that much, I'm not going to pay money for next to nothing (our union isn't very strong). As far as the education comment, it seems to me these folks want $15/hour to speak with people, push buttons on a computer, have the computer do all the math, and likely have to count out simple change for non-swipe transactions.

If these fools bring in a union, it will be their undoing in most cases. Why hire someone who barely speaks English properly, is a single parent with scheduling issues, and has numerous kids they want to toss on the healthcare plan, when you can hire the former stay at home money who only wants to work a few days a week, with a college degree, who has the logic to do things correct the first time, and actually wants to be there? See, the issue with low wage jobs is that they are for a certain class of people. Once you jack the wage up, you start to attract better people to the job. These folks are just writing their own resignation memos, as I can tell you that many of them won't be employed in fast food once wages go to $15/hour. If that kind of rate were to take hold, and magically the cost of living managed to stay the same (which it won't), then you will have much better employees with higher educated high school kids, college kids, stay at home moms with advanced educated, and retired folks who are lucky and smart enough to have saved well and/or have the benefit of a pension.

Know of any managers at McDonalds? The ones I know make right at $9 an hour.. that is NOT a living wage anymore.

The manager I knew worked about 70-80 hours a week, but was an actual store manager making $70-$80K/year. Basically two $40K/year full time jobs. Eventually was able to afford to leave after saving for what the family needed. I spoke with another manager who said head managers that their franchisee employed were paid roughly the same wage.

Again, the biggest issue these folks don't realize is that many of these stores in urban areas are going to replace their current low educated, low logic employees with people who are now willing to do the job since it will start paying $15/hour. I see a vast difference when I shop at places in the inner city, the newer part of the city, and the suburbs. I absolutely see a difference in the way a 20 something single mother living in subsidized housing works vs the 18 year old, educated Hamilton County teenager working a summer job. A person's values and morals can factor into their work life, and this comes out depending upon the underlying area.

16 year old kids aren't eligible for full time labor.

Yes they are. They can even work eight hours of OT when school is out. Granted they need "permission" from mom and/or dad, but they can still work full time.

http://www.in.gov/dol/files/Teen_Work_Hour_Restrictions_Poster_7-7-2009.pdf

If they're paying $15/hour they are not going to hire teenagers, so there goes one more entry level position making it just that much harder for our youth to gain work experience.

Actually, they will be hiring a lot of the teenagers from areas where there are better schools, which will yield a better employee. I've seen the difference between kids from bad school areas and kids from good school areas, it is there. Folks here think thousands upon thousands of workers will magically make $15/hour and gas, vehicles, etc. won't go up in price at all. If that is true, many suburban teenagers, raised right (for the most part), will be more than willing to drive an additional 10-15 minutes for such a high paying job.

What math class did you folks take that has led you to believe that the doubling of wages would double the cost of goods? Might want to think about that one for a second or billion seconds if one isn't enough.

The dollar menu didn't go away when min wage went to 7.25 either. That is your first clue. Labor costs are not 100+%.

How do fast food joints in San Francisco stay afloat with 2013 10.55 min wage?

I know when I lived out there McDonalds removed the McDouble or I should say franchise owners did because beef and high ingredient costs. Same reason they took double cheese off the menu nation wide. But I can assure you they don't charge double prices for anything and it was not the min wage law

One city don't make the entire country. When things are extrapolated over a larger scale, more changes can come. Didn't San Francisco also ban the happy meal? Umm, sounds like a forced cut in costs there. I don't know if there is enough money at the top to pay everyone $15.00. If it happens with fast food, it happens with retail, government, etc.. $15/hour becomes the new "minimum wage." Why go to school, learn some specialized skill, pay tuition to learn that skill, when you can just get a simple entry level management position making $20/hour? My current job pays around $22/hour, but I could easily see myself giving up that job and going back to be a bank teller for $20/hour. Climate controlled, no holidays, no weekends, no nights or overnight shifts, a lot less danger.

Folks are hoping that those at the top just eat the losses, or that shareholders just decide they don't want dividends, or higher stock prices. There is a lot more than just some greedy CEO and the front line worker. If I'm a local convenience store, who now has to offer $15/hour to get employees, I'm absolutely raising my prices to cover not only my employment costs, but also because thousands upon thousands of people who come into my store now have money, so why should I eat the costs to pay my employees more?

 

[hooky]

Dont know it this is true, but it sums up reality

We are Wall Street. It’s our job to make money. Whether it’s a commodity, stock, bond, or some hypothetical piece of fake paper, it doesn’t matter. We would trade baseball cards if it were profitable. I didn’t hear America complaining when the market was roaring to 14,000 and everyone’s 401k doubled every 3 years. Just like gambling, its not a problem until you lose. I’ve never heard of anyone going to Gamblers Anonymous because they won too much in Vegas.

Well now the market crapped out, & even though it has come back somewhat, the government and the average Joes are still looking for a scapegoat. God knows there has to be one for everything. Well, here we are.

Go ahead and continue to take us down, but you’re only going to hurt yourselves. What’s going to happen when we can’t find jobs on the Street anymore? Guess what: We’re going to take yours. We get up at 5am & work until 10pm or later. We’re used to not getting up to pee when we have a position. We don’t take an hour or more for a lunch break. We don’t demand a union. We don’t retire at 50 with a pension. We eat what we kill, and when the only thing left to eat is on your dinner plates, we’ll eat that.

For years teachers and other unionized labor have had us fooled. We were too busy working to notice. Do you really think that we are incapable of teaching 3rd graders and doing landscaping? We’re going to take your cushy jobs with tenure and 4 months off a year and whine just like you that we are so-o-o-o underpaid for building the youth of America. Say goodbye to your overtime, and double time and a half. I’ll be hitting grounders to the high school baseball team for $5k extra a summer, thank you very much.

So now that we’re going to be making $85k a year without upside, Joe Mainstreet is going to have his revenge, right? Wrong! Guess what: we’re going to stop buying the new 80k car, we aren’t going to leave the 35 percent tip at our business dinners anymore. No more free rides on our backs. We’re going to landscape our own back yards, wash our cars with a garden hose in our driveways. Our money was your money. You spent it. When our money dries up, so does yours.

The difference is, you lived off of it, we rejoiced in it. The Obama administration and the Democratic National Committee might get their way and knock us off the top of the pyramid, but it’s really going to hurt like hell for them when our fat a**es land directly on the middle class of America and knock them to the bottom.

We aren’t dinosaurs. We are smarter and more vicious than that, and we are going to survive. The question is, now that Obama & his administration are making Joe Mainstreet our food supply…will he? and will they?”

Aleged open letter to to the Occupy movement from a wall street trader

There are people who are driven to do better for themselves via a strong work ethic and there are people who are driven to do better as a result whining and demanding.

 

[actaeon277]

We are Wall Street. It’s our job to make money. Whether it’s a commodity, stock, bond, or some hypothetical piece of fake paper, it doesn’t matter. We would trade baseball cards if it were profitable. I didn’t hear America complaining when the market was roaring to 14,000 and everyone’s 401k doubled every 3 years. Just like gambling, its not a problem until you lose. I’ve never heard of anyone going to Gamblers Anonymous because they won too much in Vegas.

Well now the market crapped out, & even though it has come back somewhat, the government and the average Joes are still looking for a scapegoat. God knows there has to be one for everything. Well, here we are.

Go ahead and continue to take us down, but you’re only going to hurt yourselves. What’s going to happen when we can’t find jobs on the Street anymore? Guess what: We’re going to take yours. We get up at 5am & work until 10pm or later. We’re used to not getting up to pee when we have a position. We don’t take an hour or more for a lunch break. We don’t demand a union. We don’t retire at 50 with a pension. We eat what we kill, and when the only thing left to eat is on your dinner plates, we’ll eat that.

For years teachers and other unionized labor have had us fooled. We were too busy working to notice. Do you really think that we are incapable of teaching 3rd graders and doing landscaping? We’re going to take your cushy jobs with tenure and 4 months off a year and whine just like you that we are so-o-o-o underpaid for building the youth of America. Say goodbye to your overtime, and double time and a half. I’ll be hitting grounders to the high school baseball team for $5k extra a summer, thank you very much.

So now that we’re going to be making $85k a year without upside, Joe Mainstreet is going to have his revenge, right? Wrong! Guess what: we’re going to stop buying the new 80k car, we aren’t going to leave the 35 percent tip at our business dinners anymore. No more free rides on our backs. We’re going to landscape our own back yards, wash our cars with a garden hose in our driveways. Our money was your money. You spent it. When our money dries up, so does yours.

The difference is, you lived off of it, we rejoiced in it. The Obama administration and the Democratic National Committee might get their way and knock us off the top of the pyramid, but it’s really going to hurt like hell for them when our fat a**es land directly on the middle class of America and knock them to the bottom.

We aren’t dinosaurs. We are smarter and more vicious than that, and we are going to survive. The question is, now that Obama & his administration are making Joe Mainstreet our food supply…will he? and will they?”

Aleged open letter to to the Occupy movement from a wall street trader

What a load of crap.
Let him pour steel 80 hours a week, and come back and talk to me.

 

[rich8483]

wow, you must eat there easily twice as much as i do.
heres a slightly off topic question. why is it that when you are a kid, its the best place to eat, and when you grow up, you finally realize its crap?

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'd just like to point out that I was 2 cents off early in this thread. I said a dollar menu item would probably end up being $1.15, the article says $1.17. Wow, that sure is a market killer, definitely the "steak house prices" people were pulling out of their butts.



Do your own research. The unions didn't kill Hostess. Changing markets, a constant juggling of upper management, no clear business plans, and a host of other poor decisions killed Hostess.

I will agree that this does not imply that the $20 Big Mac is coming soon to a McD's near you. The likely outcome is that they will find a way to minimize adjustments to the price point to which people have become accustomed by trimming the product as they did by removing one of the two slices of cheese from a double cheesburger and calling it the 'McDouble' after determining that raising the price of a double cheesburger from $1 to $1.10 would result in a huge loss of sales. (I know, the extra Franklin Roosevelt wouldn't upset me that much either, but then again, I won't question the perception of people who have become very rich by judging these things correctly.) In any event, inflation will happen through increased prices, decreased product, or both. It will also cause a more generalized economic upset as the minimum wage will swallow up midrange pay rates rather than pushing everything up, hence eliminating much of the discretionary spending which is critical to the economy.

As for Hostess, I would say that it is a combination of forces, but not only is union labor set at a premium price, the other problem issue is that unions are extremely hostile to improved methods of production. When I was in college, I was close with the chapel secretary whose husband had been an engineer with Ford. Jim explained to me how any time an improved method of production was introduced, the union would stop work until wages were increased such that the cost per unit produced remained the same as it had been before. That both eliminates any motivation for improved methods and makes a manufacturer uncompetitive when faced with competitors who are not constrained within a similar closed system with similar 'rules' inhibiting efficiency.

Hostess had this same general issue so far as operating within the context of an outdated business model. Whether failure to act on the part of the management was the first problem or not (I don't know, I just know that the job didn't get done) I have no doubt that the union would not have gone along with it. Even now, with a re-launch underway, the lefties are screaming about the reduction in jobs compared with the pre-bankruptcy operating model. It is at a time like this that we must also examine the union model of operation which revolves around demanding more people doing less for more money while generating more revenue in form of dues for the upper management of the union who live like royalty regardless of the value the members receive from the union.

 

[IndyDave1776]

wow, you must eat there easily twice as much as i do.
heres a slightly off topic question. why is it that when you are a kid, its the best place to eat, and when you grow up, you finally realize its crap?

I spend a fair amount of time working with the middle school kids at church. One thing I have learned about them is that they are like little coyotes who will eat anything.

 

[hooky]

What a load of crap.
Let him pour steel 80 hours a week, and come back and talk to me.

I think you're missing the point. Some people are willing to do whatever it takes and some people take whatever they can from the willing.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

What a load of crap.
Let him pour steel 80 hours a week, and come back and talk to me.

He won't be pouring steel.
He won't be doing manual labor.
He won't be buying cars, or paying a landscaper, pool cleaner, house cleaner, buying a boat, leasing a dock, buying a second home, eating expensive meals and on and on and on.

 

[Indy317]

The likely outcome is that they will find a way to minimize adjustments to the price point to which people have become accustomed by trimming the product as they did by removing one of the two slices of cheese from a double cheesburger and calling it the 'McDouble' after determining that raising the price of a double cheesburger from $1 to $1.10 would result in a huge loss of sales.

The problem is, our country has pretty much be running on us serving each other in some form or another. Fast food wages can't be looked upon as something drastically different than working at Walmart, the local hardware store, etc.. It is all interconnected in the retail universe. The higher paying retail jobs usually require a bit more intelligence, more trust in the employee not to steal or run their mouth. I believe that eventually, you may see a $7.00, or even $8.00 Big Mac. Even if they go about saving money the other way, it only spreads the problem to another part of the equation. McDs sells about 6,500,000 burgers a day. That would mean 6,500,000 less slices of cheese if they reduced one slice per burger. Less cheese demand will only spread down to the supplier, who will end up raising prices, laying off staff, or cutting benefits.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The problem is, our country has pretty much be running on us serving each other in some form or another. Fast food wages can't be looked upon as something drastically different than working at Walmart, the local hardware store, etc.. It is all interconnected in the retail universe. The higher paying retail jobs usually require a bit more intelligence, more trust in the employee not to steal or run their mouth. I believe that eventually, you may see a $7.00, or even $8.00 Big Mac. Even if they go about saving money the other way, it only spreads the problem to another part of the equation. McDs sells about 6,500,000 burgers a day. That would mean 6,500,000 less slices of cheese if they reduced one slice per burger. Less cheese demand will only spread down to the supplier, who will end up raising prices, laying off staff, or cutting benefits.

The problem is, our country has pretty much be running on us serving each other in some form or another. Fast food wages can't be looked upon as something drastically different than working at Walmart, the local hardware store, etc.. It is all interconnected in the retail universe. The higher paying retail jobs usually require a bit more intelligence, more trust in the employee not to steal or run their mouth. I believe that eventually, you may see a $7.00, or even $8.00 Big Mac. Even if they go about saving money the other way, it only spreads the problem to another part of the equation. McDs sells about 6,500,000 burgers a day. That would mean 6,500,000 less slices of cheese if they reduced one slice per burger. Less cheese demand will only spread down to the supplier, who will end up raising prices, laying off staff, or cutting benefits.

Indeed so. My point with that example is the sensitivity to price point common with many consumers such that McD's didn't think that (according to the manager who shared this with me) that the traffic would bear a double cheeseburger 10 cents higher than it was, and that the increase was necessary to offset increasing costs, which in the event were offset with reduced materials.

This boils down the the economics of deliberate inflation/devaluation of currency. One may notice that 'prices' were relatively stable for over 100 years of the existence of the republic, some anomalies like those leading to the antitrust laws notwithstanding. The primary reason is that with a currency actually made of or backed by gold and silver, there was much more stability than is available with a fiat currency as we now have. The deliberate use of inflation is driving down the value of the dollar with those at the bottom and the top getting increases while those in the middle are flat in dollar amount income, or get increases less than inflation, such that minimum wage is trending toward swallowing up everyone but the rich eventually. This combination of inflation and raising the minimum wage with an otherwise stagnant wage scale will eventually create an economy like that of Mexico in which a few people are rich beyond the dreams of avarice while the overwhelming majority live in abject poverty.

The entire issue of raising minimum wage, unionizing the bottom wage earners, or anything else broadly similar is not the problem but a symptom of a much larger systemic problem which could largely be solved by a return to real money (and rediscovery of a sound work ethic wouldn't hurt anything either). To somewhat oversimplify, this would return money to a more or less absolute value rather than a commodity the value of which can be manipulated. That manipulation has moved the threshold of how many dollars are required to survive in a currency-driven economy. McD's having to fiddle with prices and product are only a very minuscule part of a systemic problem.

In the end, the systematic devaluing of the dollar will eliminate the discretionary spending power of more and more people. This will be the force that drives the economy of the future, aside, of course, from those who can manage on their own.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Raising minimum wage simply lowers the value of what anyone else makes that makes more than minimum wage. Simplified.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Raising minimum wage simply lowers the value of what anyone else makes that makes more than minimum wage. Simplified.

*shakes head* How in the universe are you so good at taking what took me half a page and condensing it into one sentence?