FBI agent negligent shooting

[Coach]

It does not take police training to know not to grab for a falling gun. But the grab is as much instinct as anything. Not grabbing it is going to be tough to do but it can happen. The best thing is to not drop it. A convention grip will go a long way in preventing a drop from a gun in hand. A good holster will go a long way in preventing a dropped gun from the holster.

This example was not the problem of grabbing at a dropped gun. It was not a problem because of the make/model/brand of the gun. The FBI guy picked up the gun with his finger on the trigger and someone got shot as a result. Good gun handling and this incident does not become a national story.

 

[Trigger Time]

Wow! I've been absent from INGO a long time! Things I am digesting after reading the entirety of this thread;

1, BBI's points out, and I should have known for myself but honestly had never considered, you should never grab for a falling gun! Yes. I can see that. That police training is so extensive as to include this truly amazes me. BBI's sheds light on life as a police officer in a consistent and straightforward way. BBI's drops his little bricks of knowledge for me to trip over for myself without visible authoritarian attitude.

2, Incredibly thoughtless and recklessness behavior without any indication whatsoever of intent equals criminal charges rather than civil liability? WTF? Say what? Really?

3, Kirk Freeman has become the butt of INGO's famous vitriol? HUH? What chance in hell do I have then? I thought he was considered one of the adults in the room. Hmmmm......... Perhaps at least partially why I have been scarce around here.

4, What gun was involved? Shall I risk joining Kirk in the department of blanket statements and suggest it was a Glock? It's ALWAYS a Glock! Well..... OK not always but it sure seems to me that Glocks with that funky slick non-staging trigger pull are involved in a lot of ND's. A learning curve for Glocks. A trigger so good you will shoot your self! Yes, trigger discipline will mitigate this.

I'm no cop but a lot of the firearns training classes ive taken have ALWAYS emphasized not grabbing for a falling gun. This is nothing new or revolutionary and that it isnt mainstream even in gunboard circles is the reason it still continues to happen and people get shot and shoot others.
People seem to get rushed dealing with firearms when they are embarrased or socializing ect. This is one reason I do not like social meet ups on a range or the firing line at least. Socialize before or after the range portion but not during. When I am on the firing line I do not want to talk to anyone that I have not trained with before or I have shot with before and knows is safe. I do not want to be distracted.

Kirk has always gotten crap for his approach. It's just mainstream (noticed) lately because popular people started to speak up to him about it so now everyone is dogpiling because they are playing follow the leader like it always has been on ingo. I've always said **** to him about it but I'm not Mr popular. Kirk isnt anymore annoying than any other free thinker here that speaks their mind. Most people dont know how to take people who bluntly state where they stand on things instead of beating around the Bush and trying not to offend anyone or hurt feelings. This isnt church.

Like.coach said, this guy is an FBI agent and by their own propaganda for the last century they are "the ultimate professionals". So yeah one would expect not to see one making elementary mistakes and shooting civilians.

People need to keep their damn fingers off of the trigger until they have sights on the thing they wish to shoot

 

[Trigger Time]

Just like I could say (speaking from past history here), dont grab a falling gun because you could accidentally get your finger or thumb inside the trigger guard and pull the trigger and shoot yourself or someone else or even if no one gets hurt you will look like a moron.
Some people would listen many more wouldn't.
But if someone like coach said the same thing (or a member that's a cop, just because they are a cop) people would be posting accolades like he/they just said the best thing since MLK's I have a dream speech. Just how things work.
I have nothing against coach or the cops here. I just wish more people would actualy go get trained. And one class isnt trained.

 

[FearAndLoathing]

This guy should be thoroughly embarassed and ashamed. Why was he doing backflips while carrying a concealed handgun?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

1, BBI's points out, and I should have known for myself but honestly had never considered, you should never grab for a falling gun!

Honestly, that's the issue with just banging on the "four rules" or "three rules" constantly without ever actually teaching anything. There's a lot of "what ifs" and rare occurrences that we don't think about ahead of time. I didn't know not to try to catch a falling gun when I first started carrying. I had what the Army considered pistol training and didn't know what I didn't know. I'm sure this guy never thought ahead of time what to do if he dropped his gun, reacted on instinct to snatch it up before anyone else had the chance, and he used the innate "snatch" grab like you'd pick up a ball instead of a pistol. Finger went in the trigger guard, bang. *probably* would have fired a DA gun as well, a manual safety would have probably prevented it.

As far as never dropping a gun, pffft, I sure have. I fumbled my dedicated training Glock out of the pistol rack in my safe a few weeks ago and it hit the floor. The rack holds the guns upside down, magazine well exposed, and not a ton of room between them. I thought I had a better hold on it then I did, lifted it up off the rack and began to remove it from the safe. I think the front sight snagged, but am not positive what stuck. My hand kept moving out of the safe, the gun didn't, then it tumbled out. I, as trained, moved my hands out of the way, stepped back, and let it fall.

It does not take police training to know not to grab for a falling gun. But the grab is as much instinct as anything. Not grabbing it is going to be tough to do but it can happen. The best thing is to not drop it. A convention grip will go a long way in preventing a drop from a gun in hand. A good holster will go a long way in preventing a dropped gun from the holster.

It doesn't take police training, but it often takes *some* training (or at least a conversation like this) as most people don't think about the repercussions before they actually drop the gun. As for the rest, absolutely. My very first carry holster was...an Uncle Mike's sausage sack. I had it cough my revolver out when I sat down, and about 1 week into my CCW journey I learned a valuable lesson about gear, bought a Nigh Noon leather holster, and have never had a holster cough out a gun since.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Yes, everybody can act like I am ignorant all they want but I am 59 years old and BBI's just accidentally taught me something. Even as obvious as anyone wants to think it is, I have good money on 90 out of 100 people never gave it a thought.

 

[Trigger Time]

Yes, everybody can act like I am ignorant all they want but I am 59 years old and BBI's just accidentally taught me something. Even as obvious as anyone wants to think it is, I have good money on 90 out of 100 people never gave it a thought.

Sorry I didnt mean my comment as you are ignorant. Not what I was meaning at all I promise.
Yes he offers very good advice and knows how to word things very well. I dont always agree with him on all of it (shooting related) but probably 98% I do. And the parts i dont are things I'm just set in my way on or have had my own different experiences with than he his.
I dont doubt for a second that he doesnt know his **** and I'm sure is a good instructor.
And you are right, most people dont know that and it's not because of ignorance it's just lack of training or being exposed to certain things.

 

[Coach]

Yes, everybody can act like I am ignorant all they want but I am 59 years old and BBI's just accidentally taught me something. Even as obvious as anyone wants to think it is, I have good money on 90 out of 100 people never gave it a thought.

I was not meaning to come across that way as well. My comment that it did not require police training was not meant to be a jab at you or the police either. "Police Training" might come across as a high level thing not readily available to most folks. Not grabbing for a dropped gun is something that should be covered pretty early in a person's training or education on guns.

I am teaching an Introduction to Firearms class tonight and as per normal not grabbing for a falling gun will be part of the section on safety. There are perhaps a number of places it is not included and it should be.

Did not mean to be demeaning toward you or anyone else.

 

[MindfulMan]

Honestly, that's the issue with just banging on the "four rules" or "three rules" constantly without ever actually teaching anything. There's a lot of "what ifs" and rare occurrences that we don't think about ahead of time. I didn't know not to try to catch a falling gun when I first started carrying. I had what the Army considered pistol training and didn't know what I didn't know. I'm sure this guy never thought ahead of time what to do if he dropped his gun, reacted on instinct to snatch it up before anyone else had the chance, and he used the innate "snatch" grab like you'd pick up a ball instead of a pistol. Finger went in the trigger guard, bang. *probably* would have fired a DA gun as well, a manual safety would have probably prevented it.

As far as never dropping a gun, pffft, I sure have. I fumbled my dedicated training Glock out of the pistol rack in my safe a few weeks ago and it hit the floor. The rack holds the guns upside down, magazine well exposed, and not a ton of room between them. I thought I had a better hold on it then I did, lifted it up off the rack and began to remove it from the safe. I think the front sight snagged, but am not positive what stuck. My hand kept moving out of the safe, the gun didn't, then it tumbled out. I, as trained, moved my hands out of the way, stepped back, and let it fall.



It doesn't take police training, but it often takes *some* training (or at least a conversation like this) as most people don't think about the repercussions before they actually drop the gun. As for the rest, absolutely. My very first carry holster was...an Uncle Mike's sausage sack. I had it cough my revolver out when I sat down, and about 1 week into my CCW journey I learned a valuable lesson about gear, bought a Nigh Noon leather holster, and have never had a holster cough out a gun since.

When younger, it was always drilled into me that "you never drop your gun, guitar, or your baby" (not necessarily in the order of importance) !
Through mental conditioning, I now omit 'gun' from that mantra .... but I still think that it holds for the other items.

 

[Trigger Time]

I was not meaning to come across that way as well. My comment that it did not require police training was not meant to be a jab at you or the police either. "Police Training" might come across as a high level thing not readily available to most folks. Not grabbing for a dropped gun is something that should be covered pretty early in a person's training or education on guns.

I am teaching an Introduction to Firearms class tonight and as per normal not grabbing for a falling gun will be part of the section on safety. There are perhaps a number of places it is not included and it should be.

Did not mean to be demeaning toward you or anyone else.

I think one turning point I had as it relates to my training years ago when I was younger, slimmer, very handsome and with hair in the right places (and I remeber it well), is some specific training when I finaly checked my ego at the door and had a complete open mind as well. Not as easy for a type A personality I assure you.
Since then I've always kept that mentality when I'm learning from any instructor. I respect their time and now if I'm taking a training class it's because I wanted to take it so I have agreed to shut the **** up, listen, attempt everything with the best and fullest Effort possible and be a good student and I have always learned something new or a better or more efficient way to do something.
I think ego or fear of embarrassment among peers or strangers is what keeps a lot of people, good people from training. Making fun of a fellow student is absolutely not acceptible while taking a class and truly shows a lack of respect to the instructor and to the fellow student as well as to our community. A good instructor will shut that **** down.
I've recomended people to train with coach. People who I respect and know are good shooters have and sing his praises. I'd like to take a class and learn from him myself.

 

[Trigger Time]

When younger, it was always drilled into me that "you never drop your gun, guitar, or your baby" (not necessarily in the order of importance) !
Through mental conditioning, I now omit 'gun' from that mantra .... but I still think that it holds for the other items.

LOL. I've deffinately dropped my gun, more than one gun and some more magnificently and idiot looking than others . Threw it down in a class once too they can take it. I'm sure I dropped at least one of my kids when they were a baby but they seem fine, dont tell them

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Sorry I didnt mean my comment as you are ignorant. Not what I was meaning at all I promise.
Yes he offers very good advice and knows how to word things very well. I dont always agree with him on all of it (shooting related) but probably 98% I do. And you are right, most people dont know that and it's not because of ignorance it's just lack of training or being exposed to certain things.[/QUOTE

No worries! Ignorant was my word. Ignorance just means you don't know. Lack of training is ignorance. You cant know everything, even common-sense things escapes guys on occasion

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

When younger, it was always drilled into me that "you never drop your gun, guitar, or your baby" (not necessarily in the order of importance) !
Through mental conditioning, I now omit 'gun' from that mantra .... but I still think that it holds for the other items.[/QUOTE

DROP YOUR GUITAR? AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

 

[Trigger Time]

Sorry I didnt mean my comment as you are ignorant. Not what I was meaning at all I promise.
Yes he offers very good advice and knows how to word things very well. I dont always agree with him on all of it (shooting related) but probably 98% I do. And you are right, most people dont know that and it's not because of ignorance it's just lack of training or being exposed to certain things.[/QUOTE

No worries! Ignorant was my word. Ignorance just means you don't know. Lack of training is ignorance. You cant know everything, even common-sense things escapes guys on occasion

Ok. Just wanted to make sure. Trust me I have enough hate that comes my way, which If I earn it that's ok I guess but if I really wasnt trying to offend someone I try to make it right
I am lacking plenty of times in common sense and plenty of things fly right over my head at times. I dont think that overall I'm a dummy but I'll never be the smartest guy in the room and if I was id be thinking, what the hell have I gotten myself into
The day I think I know everything is the day I hope someone punches me and brings me back to reality

 

[MindfulMan]

When younger, it was always drilled into me that "you never drop your gun, guitar, or your baby" (not necessarily in the order of importance) !
Through mental conditioning, I now omit 'gun' from that mantra .... but I still think that it holds for the other items.[/QUOTE

DROP YOUR GUITAR? AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Unthinkable, right !

 

[MindfulMan]

LOL. I've deffinately dropped my gun, more than one gun and some more magnificently and idiot looking than others . Threw it down in a class once too they can take it. I'm sure I dropped at least one of my kids when they were a baby but they seem fine, dont tell them

I often think that my brother was dropped on his head ..... but due to respect, never confronted my parents about it.

 

[Indyhd]

I often think that my brother was dropped on his head ..... but due to respect, never confronted my parents about it.

So, did your brother become an architect or go into politics ?

 

[MindfulMan]

So, did your brother become an architect or go into politics ?

That's a logical extrapolation, but in his case he worked for the Merchant Marines, and became a seaman ......which was probably a safer choice for the country.

 

[STEEL CORE]

Bet somebody will try and make a deposit in Chase, if they didn't release him after booking.
Shut UP and Dance!

 

[Alamo]

In a Denver court Special Agent Chase "Backflip" Bishop "pleaded not guilty to a second-degree assault charge Thursday but attorneys say a plea deal is still possible." There will be another hearing on Jan 17 to see if a plea deal has emerged.

A judge previously ruled that "Backflip" can continue to travel and carry his handgun on and off duty so he can continue to work. No word on whether his permitted activities include dancing.


https://www.detroitnews.com/story/n...t-pleads-guilty-accidental-shooting/38443927/