FBI CI Complicit in Border Agent's Murder

[blamecharles]

Great quote from the comment section on that article.
In “The Truth” there is no news, in “The News” there is no truth.

 

[88GT]

Oh, yeah, before I forget, remember that thread where people were freaking out that the CCS on the criminal prosecution was sealed by the federal judge and I poo-poo'd the hysteria?

I'm sorry to be so blase. This is much, much worse than I had reckoned.

This is nuclear.

LOL, that was mine and I was just going to ask you if you had changed your mind in light of the new information

Not that I think you had any reason to believe otherwise before...except the fact that we're dealing with the corrupt of the corrupt, the scum of scum, and so on and so forth.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Looks like I have egg on my face to be so quick to dismiss the tinfoilery.

Just because it's a conspiracy theory doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

[dross]

Usually people don't do bad things because they are evil. They are evil because they do bad things.

I was watching the Lord of the Rings marathon this weekend with my wife and daughter. My daughter is five and doesn't get it all, but I was enjoying just how much she did get, and how many opportunities for teaching are in those movies.

A constant theme throughout is choices. Everyone is faced with constant and difficult choices to be good or bad. Two examples are Boromir and Gollum. Both have fights with themselves. Gollum loses his fight with his evil side and Boromir wins his in the end.

The lesson I taught my daughter from this is that being a good person or a bad person is a choice we make every day. You can be good one day and bad the next. Most of us are.

When we create certain systems, we encourage good or evil. Some people will almost always choose good, some people will almost always choose bad. These two groups are rare. It's the big group in the middle who is affected the most by the environment and the system.

If the system encourages evil, you'll get more of it. If it encourages good, you'll get more of that.

The people in the FBI aren't evil. But if their policies encourage and reward evil behavior, most people in the FBI will do evil. This is what's behind most "conspiracies" in my opinion.

"Stupid is as stupid does, Sir." Forrest Gump

 

[88GT]

Looks like I have egg on my face to be so quick to dismiss the tinfoilery.

Just because it's a conspiracy theory doesn't mean it's wrong.

I tried to rep you for the character to stand up and admit you were "wrong." But it won't let me yet. It's not like I hold it against you. We all can only operate on the best information we have at the time. And I know cases are sealed as a matter of course for many reasons. But when the party responsible for sealing the case is a major suspect of guilt, you have to wonder just a little bit.

Also, now that I've had a chance to read through the article, someone confirm that I've got the details straight.

THere is a drug smuggling run planned for Peck Canyon on that night.

FBI knows about it.

CI informs knows about it presumably through FBI intelligence, directly or indirectly supplied.

FBI knows CI knows and that CI is planning an ambush of said smuggling run via wiretaps.

Assuming those are accurate facts, I have a few questons:

How does the Border Patrol squad of which Terry was a member on that night play into the equation prior to the confrontation? Were they there randomly or did they know to be there on that night as well?

Did the FBI know the BP was going to be there?

Was the ambush for the drugs only or also possibly to get the BP? (Of course, if there's a chance to take out BP, I'm sure they will always do so.)

Complicit sure seems a solid accusation, but there are still holes in the story I would like answered just for my own edification.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

If this is true and the FBI will set up fellow law enforcement agents for Murder, what else will they do, or not do?

I dunno. While I think the practice of using CIs is dangerous for just the reasons evident in the article you posted, to me it seems more likely that the sort of compartmentalization that goes on in all intelligence operations (which is a recognized hazard - as was stated in the story) either slipped up so that the appropriate agencies weren't all warned, or inter-agency rivalries conspired to do a half-ass job of a sting. It's a long stretch, as far as I'm concerned, to think that the FBI deliberately set up fellow LEOs to be put in harm's way. Unfortunately, it's not much of a stretch to believe that those same agents would have covered up their screwup.

 

[UncleMike]

I dunno. While I think the practice of using CIs is dangerous for just the reasons evident in the article you posted, to me it seems more likely that the sort of compartmentalization that goes on in all intelligence operations (which is a recognized hazard - as was stated in the story) either slipped up so that the appropriate agencies weren't all warned, or inter-agency rivalries conspired to do a half-ass job of a sting. It's a long stretch, as far as I'm concerned, to think that the FBI deliberately set up fellow LEOs to be put in harm's way. Unfortunately, it's not much of a stretch to believe that those same agents would have covered up their screwup.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Inter agency jealousy, lack of confidence in other agencies, and superiority complex, are all hallmarks of the FBI mentality.
It's cost them dearly in the past, and will continue to do so, as long as the [STRIKE]H[/STRIKE]J. Edgar Hoover concept of the "We're the perfect Law Enforcement Agency" prevails there.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Inter agency jealousy, lack of confidence in other agencies, and superiority complex, are all hallmarks of the FBI mentality.
It's cost them dearly in the past, and will continue to do so, as long as the J. Edgar Hoover concept of the "We're the perfect" Law Enforcement Agency" prevails there.

FIFY?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I was watching the Lord of the Rings marathon this weekend with my wife and daughter.

Aha! Gotcha!

No one who watches LOTR movies has a wife or girlfriend OR has been on a date with a real girl (shooting zombies together on a video game or your girlfriend in your D&D game do not count).

It's a long stretch, as far as I'm concerned, to think that the FBI deliberately set up fellow LEOs to be put in harm's way.

1. The FBI's CI is setting up Border Patrol Agents for ambush in order to kill them.

2. FBI knows this and does not stop him.

3. FBI's co-conspirator sets up ambush.

4. Murder of federal agent occurs during ambush.

How is that not Conspiracy to Commit Murder?

 

[UncleMike]

FIFY?

Thanks...
It's been a long day...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

But when the party responsible for sealing the case is a major suspect of guilt, you have to wonder just a little bit.

Maybe I wanted to believe otherwise.

This story changes everything and is devasting to the FBI. Where is the special prosecutor?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Aha! Gotcha!

No one who watches LOTR movies has a wife or girlfriend OR has been on a date with a real girl (shooting zombies together on a video game or your girlfriend in your D&D game do not count).




1. The FBI's CI is setting up Border Patrol Agents for ambush in order to kill them.

2. FBI knows this and does not stop him.

3. FBI's co-conspirator sets up ambush.

4. Murder of federal agent occurs during ambush.

How is that not Conspiracy to Commit Murder?

I saw where the FBI may have been aware of the ambush, but I didn't see anywhere in the article that either the FBI or the DEA was aware the Border Patrol would be in the vicinity or that the Border Patrol was the focus of the ambush.

I also didn't see a direct link between the FBI agents running the CI and the ones running the wiretap, although I can see where we might infer a connection. Sometimes information gets lost. In my laic view, if you don't have some valid evidence proving the FBI knew that a Border Patrol unit was likely to get into the middle of an ambush of a drug shipment, you don't have a conspiracy to commit murder - at least of an LEO.

 

[dross]

Aha! Gotcha!

No one who watches LOTR movies has a wife or girlfriend OR has been on a date with a real girl (shooting zombies together on a video game or your girlfriend in your D&D game do not count).

Ah, Kirk. What you say is true for most men, I'm sure, even those with University of Texas t-shirts.

It's hard for most people to understand the life I live. I did indeed watch all three LOTR movies this weekend, with my beautiful wife (my wife is ten years younger than I, BTW, and is still built like the college volleyball player and elite runner she used to be) and my lovely daughter. I admit, though, that we stopped for a while to make afternoon love when my daughter went to sleep. My beautiful and always available wife also makes a lot more money than I do. She often says things like, "Honey, I've spent a lot of money lately on clothes and stuff, why don't you get yourself a new gun."

Oh, I'm aware that this sounds like the fantasy I might have in my parent's basement in my 28th year, when I'm taking a break from playing 20 straight hours of video games, but it really is my life.

It's a lovely thing, it really is. But you know what they say: Pimpin' ain't easy.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I don't subcribe to the theory that any law enforcement agency (as opposed to an intelligence agency) should be allowing crimes to be committed under its auspices, especially murder, no matter what the justification. I also don't believe in the "they're just killing each other - good riddance" school of policing.

 

[88GT]

Aha! Gotcha!

No one who watches LOTR movies has a wife or girlfriend OR has been on a date with a real girl (shooting zombies together on a video game or your girlfriend in your D&D game do not count).




1. The FBI's CI is setting up Border Patrol Agents for ambush in order to kill them.

2. FBI knows this and does not stop him.

3. FBI's co-conspirator sets up ambush.

4. Murder of federal agent occurs during ambush.

How is that not Conspiracy to Commit Murder?

Was it an ambush to murder the BP agent(s) or to ambush the drug convoy to get the drugs to get back in the good graces of some cartel boss?

 

[MadBomber]

This really pisses me off. If only Rambone had started this thread then it could just be laughed off as tin-foil paranoia. Oh well...

 

[Blackhawk2001]

This really pisses me off. If only Rambone had started this thread then it could just be laughed off as tin-foil paranoia. Oh well...

Well there's plenty of government idiocy evident in this story, but so far I don't think Kirk has made his case for conspiracy to commit murder. So hang on to your laughter, if it makes you feel better.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm sure, even those with University of Texas t-shirts.

Uh huh, I see what you did there.

Was it an ambush to murder the BP agent(s) or to ambush the drug convoy to get the drugs to get back in the good graces of some cartel boss?

It wasn't a rip crew, it was a crew devised to kill Border Patrol agents.

From the article: "Last week, the Washington Times offered a new version of the encounter: they reported that the rip crew was not hunting illegals, but Border Patrol teams — with the intention of engaging them in combat."

EVEN IF it was a rip crew which was interested in robbing mules of drugs and money, then it would still be Murder.

E.g., if I agree with another individual, I'll pick a name at random, Jay E. Hoover, to rob a bank and something "goes wrong" and Jay E. Hoover shoots a bank employee, I'm still in for Murder.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Well there's plenty of government idiocy evident in this story, but so far I don't think Kirk has made his case for conspiracy to commit murder.

Conspiracy consists of:

1. An agreement
2. An over act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

Assuming arguendo that the report is accurate, how is this not a prima facie case of Conspiracy to Commit Murder?

 

[rambone]

I was attempting to avoid using conspiracy theorist language, but have very few alternatives here.

This is rambonian in its "through the looking glassness".

Looks like I have egg on my face to be so quick to dismiss the tinfoilery.

Just because it's a conspiracy theory doesn't mean it's wrong.

The tinfoil is with you, young Freeman, but you are not a Jedi yet.