FBI Video of 1986 Miami Shootout

[ViperJock]

Tag

 

[ghuns]

Massad Ayoob did an interview with John Hanlon, one of the FBI agents, for his podcast. It was very good, but I can't seem to track it down for a link. His archive only goes back to 2013. It was episode #65 from 1-10-2011 if anybody wants to dig deeper into the interwebz.

 

[Crbn79]

I recall a story a couple years ago about an officer with a revolver who was killed in a shootout. He was firing from behind his car and when it was all over they found he had placed his empty cases neatly in a row standing up, on the top of his car. An investigation showed that that was the way they had trained at the range.

If you observe a stress fire training, watch all the wasted seconds where the shooters do such silly things. I'm sure I did silly stuff, still do. I watched a guy once go thru 3 mags on his AR15 because he was trying to load them upside down. He said afterwards he liked how another guy had his mags upside down in the pouches and figured it could save him a few seconds. Problem was he didn't train like that. I also watched a guy looking for his dropped speed loader after reloading his revolver. In our training, you were kicked off the firing line until the next session if you were caught catching your brass, speed loader, or mag. They all had to be dropped immediately after ejection.

When I first got on I carried a 2.5" model 66 as an issued duty weapon. I recall being told to catch the ejected brass. Now days I carry a Sig 229 and when we shoot I drop the mag when it is empty and where it falls I don't care. We hopefully learn from every officer involved shooting how to improve things and give us every chance to survive. The Newhall incident, then the Miami FBI shoot out and then the California bank shoot out. The LA shoot out is why I have an issued rifle sitting next to me

EXACTLY! I've broken Dept/company owned Pmags/speed loaders like crazy and no one ever said a word about it.

 

[ViperJock]

It's why its so funny when people think they will be pulling off head shots off with a 22 against a moving target that is shooting at you. Hell i get **** from my grandpa for not carrying a jframe i carry a G26. "If you cant get the job with 5 shots you shouldn't bother. " Scumbags like to travel in 2-3's id like more then 5 shots.

Very good points. I always chuckle at guys who say stuff like that. I know they imagine themselves leaping over cars while simultaneously firing head shots at 30 yards.

I think--along those lines; the very start of the fight where the SA shoots 6 rounds at the suspect from "6-8 feet" and doesn't end the fight goes a long way to discount any of that "I only need 8 rounds," BS.

 

[Streck-Fu]

The issued FBI 10mm load is identical to the .40 S&W load - but the .40 offered more capacity in a smaller framed pistol.

They started with full power 10mm loads but then reduced the loads to manage recoil. It was process.

10mm is still somewhat popular for handgun hunting. It won't be going away even if not widely used by LE or civilians for carry.

 

[cedartop]

It's just about as bad as the Newhall Massacre where the CHP officers were wasting time putting their spent casings into their pockets. Whenever I have done tactical training Drop and go! As soon as the mag is out of the well, or hit your ejector plunger on a revolver and sweep the casings they head for the ground! When the FOG of war kicks off you fall back to how you trained.

Train how you want to fight, because you'll fight how you trained!

The Newhall spent casings thing has been debunked. Setting the record straight on the Newhall Incident

 

[Hank in Indiana]

There is also a good movie called "In the line of duty" that is a Hollywood version of the Investigation and shootout. It is based on a lot of factual data and is an excellent movie.

 

[jgideon]

Tom Givens has an excellent detailed analysis of this that is covered in his Instructor Development course. Combined with the video it is a really good example for students. Many people have a TV view of what a gunfight looks like. This helps squash some of those fantasies.

 

[j706]

I think this incident was more of a failure of tactics than weapons. The FBI and others did make changes in tactics but in addition they spent a large amount of money on things. They had access to MP5's but decided not to wait for some reason. I think those guys would have known the those bank robbers would not be going quietly. Don't know about anyone else but the last place I would have wanted to have been was sitting in another car along side of the BG's. Spooky stuff IMO.

 

[bwframe]

It's very interesting how many of the FBI guys were wounded in the hands and arms. The one that essentially ended the fight did it dragging his severely wounded arm. How many folks could even make effective one handed shots? Weak handed the same? Reloads?

 

[jgideon]

I think this incident was more of a failure of tactics than weapons.

I agree! Tactics were based on unrealistic training during that era. I personally believe it was the type of training the agents had been through that contributed to the failures. It seems like they made tactical decisions based on their previous SOP's and training, but the training purpose was flawed (qualifications vs. real life). It's a good lesson for us today. They didn't know what they didn't know.

Although I do agree that the blame was put too strongly on "things," in all fairness the Ammunition did have some play to it as many ammunition companies had a different perspective when building ammo during that time. "Stopping Power" was in a large part an unmeasurable standard that they were building towards. It tended to be more "marketing" than science and design. Much of the ammunition of that era built to those standards did not penetrate consistently. I don't think the ammunition manufacturers really learned anything from this incident but rather met the demands of the FBI when they created their FBI Ballistic Protocol tests.

Good post! It's nice seeing everyone's thoughts on this. I am going to read through Tom's analysis again tonight. Good stuff.

 

[Streck-Fu]

Tom Givens has an excellent detailed analysis of this that is covered in his Instructor Development course.

Is that available online?

 

[jgideon]

Is that available online?

Not that I am aware. It is copyrighted. I had heard rumors of the existence and references to it but didn't get a copy until I attended the Instructor Development course. I can shoot Tom an e-mail and ask if it's available to the masses and see what he says. I am guessing he will not want it distributed, but I'll ask. You never know.

 

[ghuns]

There is also a good movie called "In the line of duty" that is a Hollywood version of the Investigation and shootout. It is based on a lot of factual data and is an excellent movie.

I remember that. It had the dad from Family Ties as the head bad guy. Not as good of a role as he had in Tremors, but not bad either.

 

[in625shooter]

I agree! Tactics were based on unrealistic training during that era. I personally believe it was the type of training the agents had been through that contributed to the failures. It seems like they made tactical decisions based on their previous SOP's and training, but the training purpose was flawed (qualifications vs. real life). It's a good lesson for us today. They didn't know what they didn't know.

Although I do agree that the blame was put too strongly on "things," in all fairness the Ammunition did have some play to it as many ammunition companies had a different perspective when building ammo during that time. "Stopping Power" was in a large part an unmeasurable standard that they were building towards. It tended to be more "marketing" than science and design. Much of the ammunition of that era built to those standards did not penetrate consistently. I don't think the ammunition manufacturers really learned anything from this incident but rather met the demands of the FBI when they created their FBI Ballistic Protocol tests.

Good post! It's nice seeing everyone's thoughts on this. I am going to read through Tom's analysis again tonight. Good stuff.

I agree! It was a combination of poor tactics, a little bit of underestimating the BG's will and ammunition performance. Back in that time the first generation (or so) of 9mm was out and the ammo companies didn't have the combo down for both penetration and expansion. That was one issue (todays 9mm is night and day different and better than in even the early 1990's let alone 1986) also as tactics the 9mm round that "failed" was like the 17-19th one fired by that agent according to a report Mas Ayoob wrote about. So why that one 9mm round got a lot of blame the other dozen or so didn't.

Contrary to what some believe the revolvers they went to had better stopping power/results than their 9mm's for the above reasons. SA Morals ended it with a 38 revolver.

Bad all the way around,

 

[ModernGunner]

First, R.I.P. to FBI Special Agents Jerry L. Dove and Benjamin P. Grogan.

Sadly, in hindsight it appears both poor training and complacency ("I'm the FBI, no one would 'dare' shoot me!") is what killed 2 and injured 5 more.

LEO or civilian, one just never 'knows' when they're going to be in a gunfight or what type of fight that's going to be.

Practice and prepare every day like 'tomorrow' is going to be the Miami or North Hollywood shootout. Then pray that day never arrives.

 

[Mike Grasso]

Smoke and Prayers to the families.
Flew to Quantico for the training debrief a year later, changed Law Enforcement and Training a lot after that.

 

[j706]

It's very interesting how many of the FBI guys were wounded in the hands and arms. The one that essentially ended the fight did it dragging his severely wounded arm. How many folks could even make effective one handed shots? Weak handed the same? Reloads?

In Simunitions (Now Federal Force on Force) we see people shot in the hands with boring regularity. The claim I think is true is that a person is looking at the threat (the weapon) A good friend of mine recently was in a shooting with a thug. My buddy fired three rounds of .45 ACP out of Glock. One hit the BG's pistol, one hit the arm straight on and the other hit the heart coming to rest against the spine. Picture a two handed arm stretched forward of the body in a firing stance. Basically a five inch rapid shot group at 15 yards while on the move. Dropped the guy like a bad habit resulting in one less thug in the world. One handed weapon manipulation is must have training IMO.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Funny in a way, though, for all that evolution, flailing around technologically from 10 to .40, the FBI and ALOT of police departments are going back to 9mm.

Poor tactics and underestimation of the enemy. Enemy is armed with long guns, just bring pistols, MAYBE a shotgun. That plan was full of suck to begin with. Even a single MP5 or M16 would have GREATLY changed the outcome. Then again, with ammo tech being what it was (9mm Silvertips, 158gr soft lead SWCHP), not sure it would have made TOO much of a difference with all that autobody and autoglass around... I don't think there were many, if any, bonded 5.56/.223 or 9mm around at the time.

 

[45fan]

Funny in a way, though, for all that evolution, flailing around technologically from 10 to .40, the FBI and ALOT of police departments are going back to 9mm.

Poor tactics and underestimation of the enemy. Enemy is armed with long guns, just bring pistols, MAYBE a shotgun. That plan was full of suck to begin with. Even a single MP5 or M16 would have GREATLY changed the outcome. Then again, with ammo tech being what it was (9mm Silvertips, 158gr soft lead SWCHP), not sure it would have made TOO much of a difference with all that autobody and autoglass around... I don't think there were many, if any, bonded 5.56/.223 or 9mm around at the time.

Back then, I believe, FMJ was the bonded bullet in a .223. No, it wasnt actually bonded, but they did tend to stick together when going through barriers. As long ago as that was, I do remember hearing about it. Many officers had already taken into consideration situations such as these, and some departments were already working toward solutions to these problems. The shootout only expedited the rest of the country getting on board.

Looking at this from todays prospective, it is reasonable to think that the militarization of our police forces is a result of events such as this, and is only an attempt of the departments to be ahead of the curve, instead of grossly behind it.