Federal Legislation....AMMO Act of 2013

[U.S. Patriot]

1. 1,600 rounds may be a lot if you work at Home Depot and take your kid shooting every once in awhile. But it certainly isn't enough to maintain a level of proficiency for someone who carries a gun for a living. Basically, it's 3 days at a decent firearms class. If I were hiring someone to protect my family when I wasn't around, I don't think it'd be cool to find some guy that shot 3 days and said, "Yeah, I'm trained, I shot just 8 months ago."

2. People seem to criticize DHS like it's some independent agency with a bunch of DHS Special Agents running around. DHS is a umbrella department under which actual agencies work. Some are arguably more important than others but I don't think it's fair to criticize DHS like it is one agency. Personally, I don't equate the morons with TSA to Coast Guard and Secret Service professionals I know. I mean technically, a Secret Service agent could say he's a DHS Special Agent, but you will NEVER hear one of them say that. Same with Customs, etc.

I don't agree with most of what goes on with DHS. You have your leaderless FEMA, your completely pointless FPS, your environmental energy and agricultural agencies that I don't understand what security they provide along with some former Defense agencies that may or may not be useful or effective, I don't have any experience with them.

I'm fine with the legislation but it seems as if it's misunderstood if people think that DHS is a singular entity with some big vault hiding all this ammo. FLETC alone is pumping out thousands of rounds a day on their ranges, every day of the year. How much you think the Secret Service CAT shoots a year? Way more than 1,600 rounds a person.

The other point people get wrapped around the axle with is the fact that they are hollow points. Most agencies don't even bother buying practice rounds; they are all hollow points. So, whenever agents need ammo, the choice is agent-proof. They don't have a decision to make. Otherwise, you'd have guys carrying FMJ in their duty mags. Besides, the prices of the hollow points under the government contracts are as cheap as the hollow points. It's always been that way, long before this shortage.

I got no problem if people want to bash DHS, create more legislation, etc. I just think being educated about the facts is important.

Your reason is not wanted here. Don't you know they are training to kill us?

 

[Pinchaser]

I guess this is good, but all the stories around here suggest the shortage is due to people hoarding the stuff.

Isn't this kind of knee-jerk reaction bill the same type of legislaion we hate when it goes against us?

It has nothing to do with "hoarding" ammo. If you think about it for a while, common-sense demands that's not what is causing this amazing shortage. It's being caused by the federal government offering 6x more per round to manufacturers than they get through the civilian distributor chain. Federal, etc., would be NUTS to not sell 100% of their product to the feds. Your tax dollars are buying literally 100% of the ammo being produced right now and you are seeing NONE of it.

The topic that isn't getting the coverage it needs is what are the reason(s) the feds are doing this? Is it to deprive the public of ammo? To prepare for an upcoming offensive against the American people? All of the above? Those suggesting that the feds really need this quantity of ammo for DHS, etc., need to better educate themselves. Over 80% of the employees of these agencies do not have a service weapon and do not shoot ONE ROUND annually. The feds couldn't use 20% of what they are buying up if they had to.

 

[Expatriated]

It has nothing to do with "hoarding" ammo. If you think about it for a while, common-sense demands that's not what is causing this amazing shortage. It's being caused by the federal government offering 6x more per round to manufacturers than they get through the civilian distributor chain. Federal, etc., would be NUTS to not sell 100% of their product to the feds. Your tax dollars are buying literally 100% of the ammo being produced right now and you are seeing NONE of it.

The topic that isn't getting the coverage it needs is what are the reason(s) the feds are doing this? Is it to deprive the public of ammo? To prepare for an upcoming offensive against the American people? All of the above? Those suggesting that the feds really need this quantity of ammo for DHS, etc., need to better educate themselves. Over 80% of the employees of these agencies do not have a service weapon and do not shoot ONE ROUND annually. The feds couldn't use 20% of what they are buying up if they had to.

Your facts are way off.

1. The feds pay less than half what an average citizen pays for ammo. Feds purchase high dollar Winchester Ranger Bonded for way less than 2010's Walmart WWB prices.

2. Every last round purchased in this contract will have been fired in just a few years. FLETC alone houses thousands students at any given time. These are 99% gun toters. There are a couple of dozen ranges going M-F, all day, all year. And by the way, DHS is not the only agency that trains at FLETC. Almost all feds do as well as many state and local agencies. These agencies don't show up with crates of ammo. It's not like the ATF sends 40 of their agents to a 10 week class with each one of them bringing their own pallet of ammo. They use FLETC ammo. Which is....part of this DHS contract.

3. The feds are having just as much trouble as the public in obtaining ammo. Lead times are now out to as much as a year. It is quicker for agents to go buy ammo at Walmart to train with than to wait on their shipment from Winchester or whomever to make it in.

I know the above to be an absolute fact. I work at the FEMA range in the Amtrak basement in Beech Grove. I deal with all the federal agencies that train there.

 

[in625shooter]

It has nothing to do with "hoarding" ammo. If you think about it for a while, common-sense demands that's not what is causing this amazing shortage. It's being caused by the federal government offering 6x more per round to manufacturers than they get through the civilian distributor chain. Federal, etc., would be NUTS to not sell 100% of their product to the feds. Your tax dollars are buying literally 100% of the ammo being produced right now and you are seeing NONE of it.

The topic that isn't getting the coverage it needs is what are the reason(s) the feds are doing this? Is it to deprive the public of ammo? To prepare for an upcoming offensive against the American people? All of the above? Those suggesting that the feds really need this quantity of ammo for DHS, etc., need to better educate themselves. Over 80% of the employees of these agencies do not have a service weapon and do not shoot ONE ROUND annually. The feds couldn't use 20% of what they are buying up if they had to.

Pinchaser, I mean this respectfully. Wherever you got your info they misguided you with how it works within the federal government. I work for the FED's and am a firearms instructor. This whole idea that the Government has some kind of control on the price is hogwash. It's more of our fellow gun guys scarfing up everything and putting it on hoosier Topic or Craigslist for tripple than anything else.

Anytime the GOV buys anything from ammunition to vehicles there is a negotiated contract. Prices can not be raised or lowered unless there is a new contract which often is awarded by "lowest" bidder.

In the case of ammunition the GOV has to go through their supply chain which often times involves certain vendors. During the hype and panic after the 2008 election these vendors quit honoring the GOV contract and sold their product (ammunition) on the civilian markets because it brought several times the amount that the negotiated GOV price did. If the GOV had any special clout then they would have commendeered any ammunition shipments at that time which simply did not and can not happen in a free market.


Even with the DHS as well as DOJ and DOD orders that is nowhere near 100% of the ammo produced or anywhere close.

Also most (more than 80%) of the employees in those agencies within DHS do in fact have issued firearms. Many that do not are still required to qualify and or carry firearms on a daily basis which is a requirement to for the Federal LE retirement band (6C) that they are in. Not to mention all of the 80,000 students within the Federal LE Traning Centers in Brunswick GA and Artisha NM that expend millions of rounds a year. the staff that are on different agency SWAT teams expend anywhere from 50,000 to 100,000 rounds a year per member it quickly adds up.

I have posted this before since this topic refuses to die because people don't want to educate themselves or like stirring contraversay

but here is a link

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fleo08.pdf

with the numbers of total FED LE personnel and they all are requried to qualify and carry firearms. When you look at a 5 year deal which most contracts run for that is really not a lot of ammunition. I have been in several armories and have seen over 1 million rounds so it's nothing new or ground breaking.

 

[drillsgt]

Pinchaser, I mean this respectfully. Wherever you got your info they misguided you with how it works within the federal government. I work for the FED's and am a firearms instructor. This whole idea that the Government has some kind of control on the price is hogwash. It's more of our fellow gun guys scarfing up everything and putting it on hoosier Topic or Craigslist for tripple than anything else.

Anytime the GOV buys anything from ammunition to vehicles there is a negotiated contract. Prices can not be raised or lowered unless there is a new contract which often is awarded by "lowest" bidder.

In the case of ammunition the GOV has to go through their supply chain which often times involves certain vendors. During the hype and panic after the 2008 election these vendors quit honoring the GOV contract and sold their product (ammunition) on the civilian markets because it brought several times the amount that the negotiated GOV price did. If the GOV had any special clout then they would have commendeered any ammunition shipments at that time which simply did not and can not happen in a free market.


Even with the DHS as well as DOJ and DOD orders that is nowhere near 100% of the ammo produced or anywhere close.

Also most (more than 80%) of the employees in those agencies within DHS do in fact have issued firearms. Many that do not are still required to qualify and or carry firearms on a daily basis which is a requirement to for the Federal LE retirement band (6C) that they are in. Not to mention all of the 80,000 students within the Federal LE Traning Centers in Brunswick GA and Artisha NM that expend millions of rounds a year. the staff that are on different agency SWAT teams expend anywhere from 50,000 to 100,000 rounds a year per member it quickly adds up.

I have posted this before since this topic refuses to die because people don't want to educate themselves or like stirring contraversay

but here is a link

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fleo08.pdf

with the numbers of total FED LE personnel and they all are requried to qualify and carry firearms. When you look at a 5 year deal which most contracts run for that is really not a lot of ammunition. I have been in several armories and have seen over 1 million rounds so it's nothing new or ground breaking.

Good post, like the PDF, scary though, more federal agents than I had last known about and probably more now.

 

[JettaKnight]

The congress must be wearing tinfoil hats too.At least that's what some people think around here. Funny thing is that this is what the GAO has to say. GAO Now Investigating DHS Ammo Purchases - Washington Whispers (usnews.com)

Seems like it isn't tinfoil time after all.

What I see is that the GAO is investigating. Nothing more or less. They can investigate my Grandmother's purchases - doesn't mean there's any irregularities.

 

[JettaKnight]

A House of Representative Oversight Committee meeting in the last two weeks has PROVEN by employee testimony that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has purchased nearly 230 million rounds in the last two years which is approximately 1600 rounds per DHS Officer per year. That suggested rate of usage by the average DHS Officer is well over a 1000 rounds above the normal or historical usage by other Military or front line Federal Law Enforcement Officers. In addition there is no accountability provided by DHS to verify that the ammo was actually used in operational, training, or practice activities. In fact a large percentage of that ammo procurement is suspected to be setting in static inventory, but DHS offers no verification or accountability towards that supposition. WE THE PEOPLE have been forced to spend the money (even during the looming sequester), but apparently Obama’s administration sees no NEED to account for their actions. In addition they are authorized and plan to purchase similar amounts in the next two years.

First, thank you for starting a thread with actual information rather the usual FUDD.

1. We're in the middle of the sequestration (not a sequester, big diference).

2. Rounds issued/purchase =/= rounds expended. Same thing happens with us now; just because we buy it, does mean we shoot it all this year.

3. 1600 rounds per year isn't a lot. If I had a job were my firearm was an important tool, I'll be shooting a lot more than that.

Senator Inhofe has submitted legislation we ALL NEED TO SUPPORT. It would REQUIRE accountability and verification of ammo purchases & usage. It is the "Ammunition Management for More Obtainability (AMMO) Act of 2013; [FONT=&quot]http://www.inhofe.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/inhofe-lucas-introduce-bill-limiting-federal-agencies-from-stockpiling-ammunition[/FONT]

Because more red tape and bureaucracy is the answer! No, wait Senator, we're trying to cut that out...