Florida pastor's daughter dies from negligent discharge

[Caleb]

People seem to focus on the improper clearing technique and ignore the basic screwup of taking the gun out in the first place; hence my emphasis on don't show and tell.

Too many folks think it is cool to show off their carry guns by taking them out, waving them around and jacking with the magazines and slides, and they think it is fine since they are Jedi Master gun handlers. Proper clearing techniques are important, but those techniques are not a factor for a gun that doesn't leave the holster and shouldn't leave the holster.

Leave the carry gun in its holster unless you are attacked by someone bent on inflicting serious bodily injury!

Seriously, you beat the "don't show and tell" so much that you completely ignored my question on proper clearing of firearms aside from giving me the four basic rules.

 

[NIFT]

Seriously, you beat the "don't show and tell" so much that you completely ignored my question on proper clearing of firearms aside from giving me the four basic rules.

Uh, seriously, what thread are you on?
1. You never asked any question on this thread, and
2. I never gave you the four basic rules.

I will, however, continue to "beat" the Don't Show and Tell, because, unfortunately, it is all too common. and it is both stupid and dangerous.

Yes, the "four basic gun safety rules" are absolute, but, other than guns being loaded, the other three are moot for a gun that is in its holster and should stay in the holster. Correct clearing procedures are critical, too, but they, too, are moot for a gun in its holster and that should stay in its holster.

 

[ATM]

People seem to focus on the improper clearing technique and ignore the basic screwup of taking the gun out in the first place; hence my emphasis on don't show and tell...

I really do get it, but your pet peeve of "show and tell" (not having a need or good enough reason to handle a firearm) still only applies to a limited number of unintentional discharges.

Gun handling rules apply to all discharges - all of them, including this one.

If he'd kept the muzzle in a safe direction nobody would have been shot.
If he couldn't ensure muzzle discipline, or couldn't be sure of his target/backstop, the rules themselves would dictate that he leave it in the holster (short of a threat where the consequence of not pulling became higher than leaving it alone).

I'm all for changing the social duh factor of "messin' around with guns just 'cause it's cool", but a true focus on basic safety handling rules achieves the same and more.

We don't have to treat it like an unstable bomb (Glock guys probably should ) for it to be safe. If Cletus and Jethro need to, because they don't understand safety fundamentals, they should still be encouraged to.

 

[NIFT]

If he'd kept the muzzle in a safe direction nobody would have been shot.
If he couldn't ensure muzzle discipline, or couldn't be sure of his target/backstop, the rules themselves would dictate that he leave it in the holster (short of a threat where the consequence of not pulling became higher than leaving it alone).

My whole point in this situation and too many like it is keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction doesn't apply to a gun in its holster and that should stay in its holster. Pointing a gun any direction when it should both be in and stay in its holster is both stupid and dangerous. Similarly, being sure of a target/backstop doesn't legitimize "show and tell" of a gun that should both be in and stay in its holster.

 

[ATM]

My whole point in this situation and too many like it is keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction doesn't apply to a gun in its holster and that should stay in its holster.

I know, but it's a point of limited scope as overall gun safety goes.

Pointing a gun any direction when it should both be in and stay in its holster is both stupid and dangerous.

Stupid and dangerous imply safety violations, not just where or how you believe something should be stored.

Similarly, being sure of a target/backstop doesn't legitimize "show and tell" of a gun that should both be in and stay in its holster.

It certainly needs to be coupled with the other safety rules. Show and tell is not the core flaw, unsafe practices are. There are reasons to have your gun out of a holster - some good, some bad. Nobody gets shot without a safety violation.

I'm not justifying it, simply pointing out that unholstering, while not the safest thing you could possibly do, is not a safety violation, either.

I think we should hold a far deeper level of scorn for actual safety violations.

 

[NIFT]

Stupid and dangerous imply safety violations, not just where or how you believe something should be stored.

I'm not justifying it, simply pointing out that unholstering, while not the safest thing you could possibly do, is not a safety violation, either.

Strongly disagree!
Pulling a gun out of its holster and doing first-grader "show and tell" is, indeed, a safety violation, whether it does or does not violate the "four safety rules." The "four safety rules" are not the only safety rules, and using them to justify other stupid and dangerous actions is both stupid and dangerous.

Suggest you start a thread on why unholstering a carry gun for "show and tell" is okay and not a safety violation.

 

[ATM]

Strongly disagree!

Strongly saw that coming.

I just don't need any more rules in my life.

I also don't see why a situational guideline should be elevated to the same level as a fundamental rule.

I haven't seen you attempting to make a case for doing so, rather, you just keep repeating it.

Not saying it's a bad mantra, or that gun owners shouldn't think about this

...but not every good or wise guideline should be assigned the same magnitude of importance as the core inviolate rules.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I just don't need any more rules in my life.

That's because you are a rebel.

 

[SledAgent]

So sorry

Our family here in South Carolina seed our condolence to the family
God bless

 

[7.62]

Well I have to say it. This "security" guy, officer, idiot, whatever you want to call him needs. to have the s*** kicked out of him. That's just completely stupid that was 100% preventable. I hope they bring him up on manslaughter charges and he gets his head stomped in, in prison.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

People seem to focus on the improper clearing technique and ignore the basic screwup of taking the gun out in the first place; hence my emphasis on don't show and tell.

Too many folks think it is cool to show off their carry guns by taking them out, waving them around and jacking with the magazines and slides, and they think it is fine since they are Jedi Master gun handlers. Proper clearing techniques are important, but those techniques are not a factor for a gun that doesn't leave the holster and shouldn't leave the holster.

Leave the carry gun in its holster unless you are attacked by someone bent on inflicting serious bodily injury!

jedi wouldn't bother themselves with a blaster. They are too random and clumsy which is why they carry lightsabers. A more civilized weapon for a more civilized time.


(I would know, I'm a Jedi)

 

[7.62]

Ok...stupid question.....forgive me as I do not attend a church. What kind of church has security?.....this is a serious question!

 

[ATM]

Ok...stupid question.....forgive me as I do not attend a church. What kind of church has security?.....this is a serious question!

Many kinds of churches have security.

A good resource site here: Carl Chinn

 

[Guardsman89]

My whole point in this situation and too many like it is keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction doesn't apply to a gun in its holster and that should stay in its holster. Pointing a gun any direction when it should both be in and stay in its holster is both stupid and dangerous. Similarly, being sure of a target/backstop doesn't legitimize "show and tell" of a gun that should both be in and stay in its holster.

So when IS it appropriate to "show and tell?" I go to gun shops for show and tell all the time. They pick up a weapon from the case show it to me, even hand it to me, and tell me all about it. Whenever I get a new weapon, I sit down with my wife and oldest and "show and tell" until they understand the weapon very well. Then I take them out to shoot it until they are very familiar with it's functioning, loading, unloading, clearing, clearing misfeeds, etc.

Bottom line is that the "leave the weapon in its holster unless you need it to stop a threat" is too dogmatic. There are times to show and tell when it is highly appropriate to do so. In a closet at church is not the place. At a party over drinks is not the place. At the range? In your shop? Outdoors in a safe area? These seem to be just fine to me. It is at the appropriate times and places when you do the show and tell that basic firearms safety rules must be observed.

I reject the mantra "never take the weapon out of the holster unless you need to protect yourself." I suggest a more sensible principle "only take the weapon out of the holster when it is appropriate to do so then adhere faithfully to the four basic firearm safety rules."

 

[fullmetaljesus]

Ok...stupid question.....forgive me as I do not attend a church. What kind of church has security?.....this is a serious question!

Is it just me or do churches lose credibility when they put lightning rods on the building and put security guards inside?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Ok...stupid question.....forgive me as I do not attend a church. What kind of church has security?.....this is a serious question!

Ever heard of the Deacons of Defense?

Solid book, highly recommended:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=loNCT_ypIcOWgwfxj-yPCA&ved=0CBYQ9QEwAQ

 

[Guardsman89]

Ok...stupid question.....forgive me as I do not attend a church. What kind of church has security?.....this is a serious question!

Not many churches have security, but some of the larger ones do. Especially if the pastor is "famous" because of a radio show or a book or something he/she has done. You'd be surprised the number of oddballs a church service attracts. We have had drunk people wander in during the service and walk right up to the pastor who is speaking on the stage. There have been a number of hate crimes in churches as well, including people coming in and shooting the minister.

 

[griffin]

Not many churches have security

You'd be surprised.

 

[griffin]

Is it just me or do churches lose credibility when they put lightning rods on the building and put security guards inside?

Should the vatican not have security?

Should a local church congregation not defend itself if necessary?

What about if armed terrorists broke into a church in South Africa and started attacking the people with automatic weapons in the middle of a worship service?

 

[fullmetaljesus]

Should the vatican not have security?

Should a local church congregation not defend itself if necessary?

What about if armed terrorists broke into a church in South Africa and started attacking the people with automatic weapons in the middle of a worship service?

I would think, that their god would protect them.

Lightning rods on roof, why would god strike his own house?