Fortify a closet

[a.bentonab]

So I've been thinking about this. How difficult and/or costly would it be to construct a saferoom/gunsafe from a closet or small room?

Say you wanted to do something like take an existing large closet/small room, rip out the drywall, line the walls with cement blocks and mortar, and then a layer of steel thick enough to be essentially bulletproof? Hang drywall again and noone would ever know. Then either buy the most secure door that Menards sells for security by obscurity or you could buy a vault door. How would this setup compare to an actual vault/professionally built saferoom? I would assume it would be cheaper and somewhat less secure.

Would it be better in the basement so you wouldn't have to worry about the weight of it all? Also that means you've got a decent layer of concrete underneath/beside you already. Would it be worth fortifying the floor and or ceiling?

If you bought your own door from Menards, would you be able to find a lock secure enough? With a regular format of a key on one side and a latch on the other, it would be easy for this space to pull double duty as a safe and a safe room. Keep it locked at all times just like any safe and open it to get your stuff out. Alternatively, if the S ever HTF then unlock it, step inside (with the key obviously) and use the latch to secure yourself.

I realize this wouldn't be a bomb shelter (well maybe if it were in your basement with a vault door) but I guess what I'm asking is would the cost of something like this be worth the security of having a secure place to store valuables and run to if robbers came in the house?

Thoughts?

 

[SSGSAD]

I have been thinking, the same thing..... When, I look for my next house, it must have a basement, or an "extra" room, just for the purpose, you are talking about .....

 

[strahd71]

i'm not expert but i would think one would need to maybe worry about weight if you did it up stairs. and the basement you would have to worry about moisture if your storing things in it. even a dry basement usually has high humidity at times.

good luck

jake

 

[HighStrung]

The wife and I are beginning to look for the land we plan to purchase as our final house. Considerations like having a basement room similar to that which you are describing weighs heavy on our decision. Luckily I work in the concrete industry and plan on doing this part of our home build myself (well, with the help of some close friends).

 

[a.bentonab]

Luckily I work in the concrete industry

Do tell! what kind of things would or would not be feasible. What would be the cheap way and the expensive way, and the cost of each? Could a newb do this kind of stuff? I figured I could do concrete blocks myself, I don't mean to brag but I've got extensive lego experience. I figure that some kind of mold is probably out of my league.

 

[sloughfoot]

I find more value in getting out of the house than being locked into a room with no idea of what might be happening outside the room.

Naturally escape would be the option if armed defense for some reason, failed or was not an option. My family knows to dive out the nearest window.

The room you describe can be built. It can also be defeated by explosives and fire.

When the soles of your sneakers start melting, then what do you do? You are blind with no intel, locked in your "safe room".

 

[a.bentonab]

I find more value in getting out of the house than being locked into a room with no idea of what might be happening outside the room.

Naturally escape would be the option if armed defense for some reason, failed or was not an option. My family knows to dive out the nearest window.

The room you describe can be built. It can also be defeated by explosives and fire.

When the soles of your sneakers start melting, then what do you do? You are blind with no intel, locked in your "safe room".

Even so, what about using it as a safe? If you made one this way you could certainly use it as a safe room. Nothing would stop you from leaving the house if you want. Surely there is some situation where it might come in handy. Tornado comes to mind.

 

[strahd71]

theres a time and place for everything even a safe room?

jake

 

[Iroquois]

There was a time when bomb shelters were all the rage... now not so much.
A ground floor 'safe-room' is an oxymoron . An f4 tornado will strip a slab foundation
bare. An under ground room makes more sense especially with a concrete ceiling. With
the right filtration,drainage,stores,etc,it may be helpfull in case of a terrorist nuke.
If someone breaks in you're probably better off to take a defensive position and shoot it out. Leaving an escape route is a good idea too.
An old abandoned house next to mine caught fire. The raccoons that had been safe in the old brick chimney screamed as they died...

 

[J man]

How about adding a closet onto the house that could be built the way you want as a safe room?

 

[ViperJock]

A safe room can provide you with a few minutes of relative safety to reload and wait for SWAT... In a true SHTF scenario, you will have to leave the room before things cool down, most likely. But in the case of a home invasion or tornado or similarly timed emergency, I think a safe room/closet can be a nice asset. Depending on the size of it you can keep a BOB and/or a complete 72 emergency kit with food and water.

Pouring cemement would be the way to go, but is $$$ in a home that is already built because of logistics. Bullet resistant armor/doors can be purchased from companies such as this one: http://www.usbulletproofing.com/ but it can also get pricey.

I recently did an experiment (They asked me to shoot their door! how awesome was that?) for an Indy company in which we took a sample of a door with the following stats; 18g steel hollow/foam door with 2 14g plates on 1 side and 1 14g steel plate on the other/back. 9,40,45 barely dented the double plated side. 357mag made a nice dent and 44mag went through the double side and dented the back/single side. I believe the final product was double plated on both sides with an 18g latticework inside the door for support. I am not sure what retail will be for this, but I expect around $1k. AND you have to have a special frame and hinges (included in the price?) to hold up the 300lb door... I doubt it would stop a 223 or any other "real" rifle caliber. It would probably buy you a decent amount of protection from the average BG carrying a .22/9mm/38/.45 handgun. At least enough time to load/reload.

Also, as above, there are certainly times when I would NOT hide there. Fire, for example. Even if your room was "fireproof" you might still die from extreme temperature or smoke inhalation. You have to use common sense and engineering to determine what it can and can't do.... Also, as above, nothing a foolproof. Eventually, with the right tools, the right person can get into anything. You probably aren't going up against that Jim Phelps and company though?

 

[HighStrung]

Do tell! what kind of things would or would not be feasible. What would be the cheap way and the expensive way, and the cost of each? Could a newb do this kind of stuff? I figured I could do concrete blocks myself, I don't mean to brag but I've got extensive lego experience. I figure that some kind of mold is probably out of my league.

Actually, there are several options that would actually be pheasable, the problem is going to be cost and difficulty. They make panels which can be assembled into sections that form walls (4' or 8' x 24"). Using these you can form both sides of a wall at desired thickness depending on the ties you use to hold them together. While these could be assembled inside an existing location, removing them after the concrete has been poured will prove very difficult in a space limited environment. Also, these forms are filled from the top which will present it's own challenges in a project like your talking about. Concrete itself isn't very cheap either, plan on $100/cubic yard is typical board price in the Indy area, outside of that may be a little cheaper but it won't be much. Though not as strong, a reinforced cinder block wall that has been filled with grout after it's setup would be another good option, though this too would have to be filled from the top and you're going to lose a lot of volume in your area due to the thickness of the block (8" thick I believe) itself whereas a formed and reinforced concrete wall could be done around 4" thick. Really, the easiest thing would be to have either of these types of walls built before the structure on top of or around it, but I know thats not your situation. My plans are to have a poured concrete basement with a reinforced section (and reinforced steel door) which will be completed prior to the house being built. The main purpose of this will be storage, gun safe, and weather/SHTF shelter. I also agree with some things mentioned by others in this thread about ventilation, humidity, and other environmental considerations when building a vault such as this. Now come the weight issues, concrete alone weighs in at approx 145 pounds per cubic foot. Since there are 27 cubic feet per cubic yard, a cu.yd. weighs 3915 pounds, or almost two tons. In general, figure a cu. yd. of concrete will fill a wall or slab that is 9'x9'x4", so it can add up pretty quick. This is something that would be much better suited for a basement especially if the house isn't located on a slab already. Not only will the cost be a determining factor in a project like this, the difficulty of getting concrete to the actual walls (no matter how you do it) is going to be tough. Bringing concrete in with a contractor sized wheel barrow half full weighing 300-400lbs (or by 5 gallon bucket weighing 100+lbs) through the house down the stairs and into the basement or poured in a chute thru a basement window then lifting it to get it into the forms are both going to present their obsticles, I've seen both done and neither are easy on physical demands, not to mention the mess that will undoubtedly be created in your house. It's something that I would put a lot of thought into before starting a project like this. If I can be of more help, don't hesitate to ask.

 

[a.bentonab]

How would you fortify the roof? I didn't realize the extent of the weight involved. Sounds like basement or slab would really be the only options if more than a fleeting amount of cement is going to be used.

What kind of cost would we be talking about?

 

[ATOMonkey]

A safe room is good for storms as well as storm troopers.

A tornado is also much more likely to knock down your front door than tacti-cool guys who just want to get home.

I definitely want to put a storm shelter in my next residence.

 

[cosermann]

To decide how to fortify such a closet you first decide what you want to fortify it against and for how long. Then you'll have a spec to which you can build. That will keep you from under-building (and not having the protection you think you have/need) and over-building (unnecessary weight, expense, time, etc.).

 

[HighStrung]

How would you fortify the roof? I didn't realize the extent of the weight involved. Sounds like basement or slab would really be the only options if more than a fleeting amount of cement is going to be used.

What kind of cost would we be talking about?

Again, my plans are to have the room built before the house is on top of it, but my plans are to have a pre-formed pre-stressed reinforced concrete slab poured, then this slab section will be lifted by crane onto the four existing walls and then epoxied/grouted into place. Luckily again, access to a crane is something that comes with my job so it'll work for me but not in a situation where you're building this in an existing structure. For putting a concrete ceiling in a safe room within an existing house, I really have no good ideas. If your room is 4'x4', the ceiling cap would be 4'4"x4'4" at 4" thick. This alone will mean that a cap/ceiling for a 4'x4' room would still weigh in at around 815lbs, not something I'm personally capable of lifting into place. As for other expenses You'll have to rent the concrete forms and get some form release chemical (we have them at work, I don't know a rental price). Walls are recommended to have the concrete vibrated as it's placed so you'll have vibrator rental. If you do a very simple 4'x4' room at 8' tall with walls 4" thick, you've already got over 2 yds if you have a floor and ceiling to your room. More importantly, you've got almost 8000lbs of material at this point. Most concrete companies have a haul charge of +/- $100 on anything less than 3 yds, so figure that expense as well. Reinforcement (rebar) expense should be minimal (<$100) but I would want it in my walls and the ceiling for sure, so having a means of cutting and tying the rebar would be needed. These are just a few of the expenses I can see right off the top, I'm sure there would be some others. A couple other things. Are you making this area air tight, what about lighting? If so, the conduit for electrical or any other utilities will need to be in place during the pouring of the walls, or drilled and filled in later. One requires drilling holes in the forms before the concrete is poured so that the forms include the conduits. Drilling after the walls are in place requires more equipment and most likely hiring someone to drill then reseal the conduit holes. Not sure if the form rental place will allow you to drill 1"+ holes in their forms or not, I would assume not without damage fees. Hope this helps.

On a side note, we're talking about a pretty small area here, 4'x4'. Tape a square on the floor at these measurements, is this really enough room? With little if any shelving for supplies, there isn't much room for you (or you and your family) to really move around. Just something to think about.

 

[Iroquois]

Anybody thinking about a storm shelter should look up Jarrel Texas tornado/1997
A whole subdivision was leveled to the slabs and a half mile wide swath of topsoil 18" deep was sucked up for miles. One family that survived had dug a sit-down shelter under
the 10" concrete slab...
If you could dig such a shelter under any house with a crawl space and maybe leave
a back door out disguised as a vent.

 

[J man]

Here are a few things to look at or consider
[ame=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330433535245&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_6212wt_907]Building a Safe Room, Two Books and Plans - eBay (item 330433535245 end time Jun-07-11 22:50:38 PDT)[/ame]

[ame=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250682234168&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_922]Above Ground Storm Shelters - Safe Rooms - eBay (item 250682234168 end time Jun-09-11 09:35:58 PDT)[/ame]

 

[HighStrung]

I've found some great pdf's online that offer suggestions and even how-to's on shelter building, some are fema prepared while others come from military field manuals

I can send you these pdf's if you like but here are a few examples
Go here: Survival Bill : Survival & Bushcraft Forums &bull; Index page

then find this section. It's only about 4" down the page of downloadable pdf's. Needless to say, theres a wealth of info in all these pdf files for a variety of needs.
cw_shelterh121.pdf (http://survivalring.org/pdf/cw_shelterh121.pdf)
cw_sheltrh12a.pdf (http://survivalring.org/pdf/cw_sheltrh12a.pdf)
cw_sheltrh12c.pdf (http://survivalring.org/pdf/cw_sheltrh12c.pdf)
cw_sheltrh12e.pdf (http://survivalring.org/pdf/cw_sheltrh12e.pdf)
cw_sheltrh12f.pdf (http://survivalring.org/pdf/cw_sheltrh12f.pdf)
cw_sheltrh122.pdf (http://survivalring.org/pdf/cw_sheltrh122.pdf)

 

[cosermann]

FEMA also has some specs online somewhere IIRC. They're for tornado safe rooms, but they'd do well as a vault/safe room too depending.