Frustration= possible new rifle purchase, need help.

[ART338WM]

Just got back from the range and maybe I have finally hit my limit of frustration with sabot slug ammo. Shot two different lot#s of two different sabot slugs and man was it as frustraiting and utterly baffaling an expereince as i have ever had to endure with a firearm. The sabot ammo in question are:
<>Winchester Partition Gold 12 ga 2.75" one lot# is about 5 years old second lot# over 15 years old.
The older ammo gave me 2-2.25" 100yrd 3-shot groups. The newer ammo shot unacceptably 4.5" 100yrd groups.
<>Ammo type #2-Federal Barnes all copper tipped Expander. This really mystifies me in this ammo usually performs quite well giving 100yrd groups btwn 1.5"-1.75". But this time the newer ammo shot about as bad as the new Winchesters.

These two brands of ammo have been my stand by ammo for over 15 years, Federal discontinued the Barnes ammo and Winchester also has changed my first sabot of choice the Partition golds. To answer a few questions before they are asked, yes I tried shooting all types that day at 50 yards first and the groups were only slightly smaller than the 100yrd groups. It was a absolutely dead still day so wind was not a factor. I was getting superb groups shooting my Knight inline, so I am sure I was not just having a bad day. My scope mounts and rings are rock solid so thats out of the equaision. I'm reasonably certain the scope is good because my groups were poor, but not all over the place. I know i could just hunt with one of my inlines but I would prefer to hunt with a rifle with more than one shot if possible. And yes where I hunt shots beyond 200yrds are quite likely.

So with sabot ammo over $3 a round and the accuracy no where near that of my inline ML's it has me strongly considering a .358 Hoosier. Does anyone know about what one would cost if done as cheaply as can can within reason? Am thinking of buying a used 110 at cabelas and have a smith install a barrel on it. I love to reload so all i would need is to buy a set of dies from hornady and some brass.

Lastly does anyone know if anyone makes a aftermarket Encore barrel in .358 Hoosier?

Thanks,
Arthur.

 

[Bill B]

Barrel fouling can make a huge difference. You don't say how many shots you took of each type of ammo or if the barrel was or wasn't cleaned between shots or between groups.
In my cva wolf, if the barrel is clean the group moves as the barrel accumulates fouling. I mis-remember exactly what mine does, I think the group moves up and left. Anyway, it's not unreasonable to believe that over 4 - 5 rounds your group will widen. but then again, this is all speculation. If you're clean the barrel after every shot or two I don't know what to tell you maybe there's a scratch or burr on the muzzle or in the barrel that's messing things up?

 

[woodwalker]

I think MGM makes a barrel for the Encore. My son bought one and I think the whole set up with scope was around $1200

 

[ART338WM]

Bill, thanks for the input. I should have listed more info, but I was in hurry to get to bed after a long day at work. I have an enormous amount of experience shooting sabot slug ammo. My 12ga A-Bolt shooting Federal Barnes tipped expanders is a honest no BS 1.5-1.75" 100yrd combo. Shooting WPG ammo I will stay on the side of caution and say my A-bolt is a 2-2.25" gun. I only ever buy slugs of the same lot# and store them in sealed ammo cans. Bad groups like I described, no stranger am I. That is the reason I'm so frustraited. I have had long conversations with Mr. Dave Henderson who is likely one of the fore most athorities on slug ammo about inconsistant accuracy plaguing sabot slug ammo. I developed a practice of buying 3 boxes of a spacific lot# shoot them at 50 and 100yrds, if said lot# performs to my standards, I quickly go back and buy as much as i can.

He told me that because of the design of a plastic shotgun shell that lacks the total rigiditty of a brass casing it is almost impossible to maintain the shell to shell, lot to lot consisitantcy nessasary to achieve accuracy common to brass cased CF rifle ammo. he told me of a instance where Hornady gave him some pre production samples of their SST sabot ammo. He said they shot superbly, but they also were basically hand loaded by Hornady tecs. When dave tried some of the same mass produced SST ammo OTC his results were much different, in short accuracy was no where near as good as the previous bunch.

I had a similar experience with Remington Core-Lockt ammo. I tried the Core-Lokts when they were brand new and first available OTC. This new remington ammo gave me the best accuracy I have ever had shooting sabot ammo. All 100yrd 3-shot groups were at or below 1.5" IIRC most were below 1.5", hovering right around a 1.25" average. When i started to get low on that lot# I went and bought 2 boxes EA of three different lot#s of ammo at cabela's as I learned the hard way sabot performance can and DOES vary immensely lot# to lot#. Could not get any of the lot#s of ammo to group worth a damn. Talk about a HUGE let down. And yes I make sure to start every shoot with a clean barrel, and i only shoot 10-15 rounds before I clean again. I use MC-7 bore cleaner as it's the best I've found to date at removing plastic fowling from sabots.

I had thought for some time that the fact my A-Bolt is a first run A-bolt who's barrel has a 1:34 rate of twist might be the cause of my problem, but I thought I had shot enough good groups to discount the slower ROS of a 1:34. I have been told be serious sabot experts that 12ga sabot ammo prefers a 1:28 rate of twist for optimal performance. The new A-bolts are in fact 1:28 twist. I also own a Marlin 512 Slug Master and it's a 1:28. So I will make sure both are 100% clean and do a SbyS shoot with both to see what happens. I bought my 512 the vary first year they were for sale. Sent it to a smith who specialized in accurrizing shotguns. Had him to a trigger job, crown my muzzle, and bed the action. It as fate would have it shoots as good as my A-Bolt.

I guess i will see what happens. If I can't find a good deal on a .358 Hoosier, hopefully used, I will hunt with my Knight or my 10ML-II if my sabot situation doesn't improve. My Knight and my 10ML-II shoot as well as any CF rifle I own and MUCH MUCH better than my slug guns, like a Concord SST is better than a horse drawn cart.

 

[UncleNorby]

You're on the right track for a 358 Hoosier. I believe the cheapest route is to pick up a beater Savage Model 10 (long actions will work, but the short action is a better option) and rebarrel to 358 Hoosier. If you are able to swap the barrel yourself, just go straight to a barrel maker like Shilen, and order your barrel. Tell them the contour you are tying to match and they'll get it pretty close. You may need to work your barrel channel a little as I did, but nothing major. I don't know what Shilen is getting these days. I had AJ Brown do my conversion, and it was 385 out the door a couple years ago. I'll bet a guy that can do the swap himself can get into a Hoosier for right around 400 total if he finds the right donor gun.

 

[ART338WM]

Thanks for the info UncleNorby. I see cheap used and new 110 short actions all the time at Cabela's. Will reaserch how to change a 110's barrel on youtube and see if its feasable.

 

[UncleNorby]

The swap is as easy as it gets with the Savage. The barrel is locked in place with a locknut. You just need a loaded cartridge that you know is in spec to use as a gauge to set headspace and the tool (wrench) made to do the job. A barrel maker may even loan/rent you the tool.

 

[Contender]

MGM for the Encore barrel. The barrel runs around $350-400 if you already have the frame.

A 44 mag will match your performance with the slug gun unless you are just wanting some loooong range.

Know what you mean about the sabots. Sold two smooth bore slug barrels and bought rifled. A few years later and about $40 of slugs and what appeard to be a cantilevered scope mount that had moved, bent or something one of the rifled barrels went on e-bay and was replaced by a smothbore. Next year my wife was sighting in her's and after another $40 or so of slugs she still did not have it. That went on e-bay and was replaced by a smoothbore also. Forester slugs and our ML's got us by. Now with the pistol caliber rifle rule my slug guns will never see the light of day.

 

[Damdamdon]

Love my Hoosier. Very little recoil, extremely accurate, and inexpensive to shoot after initial investment.
m&s armament had converted savage rifles advertised on armslist.
I have a MGM encore barrel

 

[kludge]

So with sabot ammo over $3 a round and the accuracy no where near that of my inline ML's it has me strongly considering a .358 Hoosier. Does anyone know about what one would cost if done as cheaply as can can within reason? Am thinking of buying a used 110 at cabelas and have a smith install a barrel on it. I love to reload so all i would need is to buy a set of dies from hornady and some brass.

Lastly does anyone know if anyone makes a aftermarket Encore barrel in .358 Hoosier?

Thanks,
Arthur.

You just nailed why I almost immediately stopped carrying a Remington 1100... couldn't hit a paper plate at 75 yards (rifled barrel). Add in the recoil, the immense weight, and the fact that I can buy 100 pistol bullets for $25 and hit the paper plate every time and you know why I immediately switched to a Ruger Super Redhawk (before the PCR days). And I can use the same pistol bullets in my ML.

Check out BFG Cartridges, he might have an Encore barrel. BFG Design, Wildcat Cartridge Design, Custom Barrels, Brass, Bullets and Dies.

Don't overlook the .357 Maximum, .357 Herret, and .35 Remington 1.8" as lower cost alternatives...

... but don't think that a barrel swap on a Savage for $800-$1000 rifle is going to save you money over paying $3-$4 a pop for 12 GA sabots.

This year will be my fourth (or is it 5th?) season with my .358 WSSM. McGowen made my barrel and set it up on the action (Savage WSM donor rifle). It shoots 1/2" groups with the ballistics of a .358 Winchester, or slightly better. I get 2525fps from 200gr bullets out of a 22" barrel with IMR4895, but I believe I will get close to 2600fps with H335 or IMR3031. Having seen the results on deer first hand, I would have no problem using it on elk.

I have seen the claims of the .358 Hoosier, but no independently measured chronograph data.

The good thing about the Hoosier is easy to find brass. The .357 Herrett can be formed from .30-30 so no problem there either.

The top dog in the .358 1.8" category is the .358 WSM 1.8" which can outperform the .35 Whelen, but it'll thump you. (The .358 WSSM has the muzzle energy and recoil of a .30-06, IME)

Cost... (including dies, barrel, and smith work, but not including the reamer or several shipping chargers) My .358 WSSM cost me $450+$270+$180=$900. If you can find a better deal on the donor rifle that's where you can save the most money. If cost is an issue and you already have an Encore, I'd go that route instead of the savage route and get an "off the shelf" barrel. The .357 Max and .357 Herrett are the equals of the .35 Rem when fired from a rifle, and are plenty for whitetail out to 200 yards... and can be very accurate.

The Great .357 Remington Maximum Revival for some light reading.

What would I do differently? I'd make the barrel thinner. I got McGowen's "Savage Magnum" taper and I could have easily gone one thinner. And had the 1.8" rule been in place when I built mine, I may have done something different entirely, but not a .358 Hoosier... maybe a .358 Kludge?

On the cheap I would get a .357 Magnum H&R single shot and ream it out to .357 maximum. On the other hand I saw a .35 Remington single shot at
Gander Mountain last week... just trim the brass to legal length (a bit less actually), load to the COL in the book, crimp. Done.

Scout V2 Centerfire Rifle Series :: CVA

 

[Brennend08]

the 358 hoosier is a nasty accurate round. and like he said after the initial investment its not too bad to shoot especially if you reload it.

 

[Deet]

I too was in a similar situation, I wanted a longer range and more powerful round for deer hunting. The 44 mag is ok and what I was using, but I wanted a true rifle round, and I didn't want to reload for it, have a barrel re-bored, or have to spend billions on it. My answer was the 35 Remington single shot CVA. Gun $220 from Bud's, scope $50 from cabelas (close out scope was $129) sling $20 and reloaded 35 Remington trimmed to 1.795 by Rose Reloaders at 90 cents a round. Whole setup cost less than $400 and was in my possession in 2 weeks after making my decision. Next year all I am going to do is use regular 35 Remington rounds if we pass the new rifle regulations I am hearing about. Good luck with your decision.