GM plant / United Auto Workers Local 23

[Armed Citizen]

My wife worked for a company that had a union. She worked hard everyday, had excellent attendance, putforth a solid effort, in short was the perfect employee. A position opened within the organization that she was more than qualified for, yes it came with more money, it was right up her alley. When she went to apply for it another woman had applied. This woman had longer seniority than my wife. This woman missed work all the time, her work that she did do was well below par, she was combative and did not promote teamwork, and she was way under qualified. Guess who got the position? Promotions were not based on merit but seniority. The contract actually read this. Then to top it all off my wife was paying dues to this union for this type of representation.

 

[1donos]

When govt and unions can dictate what auto plants or dealerships stay open or close you know we have reached a new low in American history.
We need to put the decisions back in the hands of the owners....oh wait in this case they are the owners??? Glad I wasn't a bond holder
I think it is called statism on the way to socialism??? I don't think it comes close to capitalism!!

 

[beararms1776]

I make just a little over half of what these guys were making (at $30/hour). I failed to ever get a discount on my groceries compared to what they were paying. I failed to get a discount on my utilities compared to what they were paying.

$15/hour is a pretty decent wage in Indy. No, you can't have a 3,000 sq. ft. home with three garages for the most part. No, you likely can't live in Carmel on that wag, nor could you take semi-yearly vacations to Hawaii. However, for a single person, $15/hour isn't a bad wage. If these folks would rather have $0/hour and live in Section 8 ghettos....so be it.

Not every employee was for the shutdown but for the ones that were it could get very difficult to find a job if they're not willing to except 10-$15hr. If they do find a job, I wouldn't expect much from someone that turned down $15hr. before.

 

[Indy317]

Not every employee was for the shutdown but for the ones that were it could get very difficult to find a job if they're not willing to except 10-$15hr. If they do find a job, I wouldn't expect much from someone that turned down $15hr. before.

It was already stated that a good % of the employees at that plant were known as "GM Gypsies." These are GM union workers who bounce around from plant to plant because their initial plant closed down, and they want to keep the huge wage, so they are willing to drive hours to their job, or even move to another city. One lady who retired from there called a radio station a few weeks back. She said that when she was there, there was was a lot more people employed at the plant. She said it was not uncommon to have folks driving from New Albany, Richmond, etc. for a job there. She said as the smaller towns lost their GM plants, lots of union workers often shifted their employment to other plants still open, because there is no way they could get the same wage for the same type of work outside a UAW auto plant job. A friend of mine had a grandfather who worked at the Indy Chrysler plant. It closed down and for his last two years he was driving from the east side of Indy to Kokomo.

These folks figure they will get some other UAW job in some other area. The folks voting against the closing likely were tied down to the area and didn't want to leave or add to their travel time.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

These cars are being made by supply and demand...Right now Ford(was doing a revamp there this weekend) is pumping cars out 1 every 90 seconds...Seems pretty fast to me..but the demand went up so there going to be doing 1 every 56 seconds..the employees pay stays the same...no extra pay for picking up the pace its just what the demand calls for.

You can also say they didn't get a pay cut for dropping the pace down when the demand was down. And I don't know if the auto industry is the same as the steel mills but if they are they do get a pay increase. Their hourly wage doesn't go up but they get paid incentives for any work over a set amount. And at least when my Dad worked in the mills the set amount was very low. Most of the jobs you hit it in half a shift taking your time. And the workers took their time, because if they didn't management could argue that if they were producing x amount a shift every shift then the set amount should be increased. So they worked enough to get the set amount and a bit over for the incentive pay.

And 1 car every minute and a half is fast? Depends, how many people are working on a line? How many lines are running? If 500 people are on a line or in support for the line(no idea of how many there actually are just using that figure as an example) and 10 lines. That's 7500 minutes per vehicle.Or 125hr per vehicle, does that still seem fast?And I think there are a more than 10 lines in any of the large auto makers.

Try putting ALL the seats in a Suburban every 57 seconds for ten hours a day, 6 days a week, for 10 years or so, oh hey they've got a bunch of jobs at GM they are hiring for.

Why do I get the feeling that you've never worked an assembly line before? I highly doubt that 1 person puts all the seats in a Suburban every 57 seconds. There are probably several stations for each seat and it averages out that the seats get put in in 57 seconds. So you have 5 guys putting in the same seat on five different cars at the same time. Then you have another 5 guys putting the nuts on, then another 5 guys who tighten them down.

I used to work on an assembly line for semi-trailer chassis for container freight. On an average day we might put one out the door every 15 minutes or so. That was start to finish including welding, paint, lights, wiring, airlines, decals etc.

As a comparison to your seat example, try painting a chassis every 15 minutes every day. But one person doesn't. Depending on the chassis there might be 4-6 people painting each one. And that's not including the people doing paint prep and touch up etc.

Come work on assembly line and show me how to accomplish that.

I have worked on an assembly line, one person slows down it effects the rest, or a group of them get together and do it. It's not that hard.

I've seen the same thing on a disassemble line aka slaughter house. The supervisor or crew leader is pushing for more production and turns the line speed up, the workers slow down even more which means the line gets backed up and they have to turn it down slower than before so they can get caught up.

 

[Farmerjon]

This is only an opinion, it is my opinion, I am not ancient so did not live in the days before unions. I have read books about Chicago and the slaughterhouses before unions. Tyrant bosses/owners ruled with iron fists. The unions were the worker's defense agains tyranny. For the past 25 years I have thought the unions had reached the level of power that they now/currently are the tyranny that will be the ruin of the worker like the boss/owner was in history. That is only my opinion.

I have learned a lot reading through this whole thread. Very interesting points. Scary scenarios brought to light. My son in law works at a camper facility in Northern Indiana, they make currently 15 campers a day. Start to finish, complete, he says they are moving and moving fast all day. Non union, but they are making good money.

 

[Zimm1001]

Just heard an interesting thing on the morning news. They were talking about the divorce rate increasing in China because employees no longer had to get permission from their employer to get a divorce. What's the point? I thought I had one but I forgot what it was. LOLOLOL.

 

[BloodEclipse]

You can also say they didn't get a pay cut for dropping the pace down when the demand was down. And I don't know if the auto industry is the same as the steel mills but if they are they do get a pay increase. Their hourly wage doesn't go up but they get paid incentives for any work over a set amount. And at least when my Dad worked in the mills the set amount was very low. Most of the jobs you hit it in half a shift taking your time. And the workers took their time, because if they didn't management could argue that if they were producing x amount a shift every shift then the set amount should be increased. So they worked enough to get the set amount and a bit over for the incentive pay.

Not at an assembly plant

And 1 car every minute and a half is fast? Depends, how many people are working on a line? How many lines are running? If 500 people are on a line or in support for the line(no idea of how many there actually are just using that figure as an example) and 10 lines. That's 7500 minutes per vehicle.Or 125hr per vehicle, does that still seem fast?And I think there are a more than 10 lines in any of the large auto makers.



Why do I get the feeling that you've never worked an assembly line before? I highly doubt that 1 person puts all the seats in a Suburban every 57 seconds. There are probably several stations for each seat and it averages out that the seats get put in in 57 seconds. So you have 5 guys putting in the same seat on five different cars at the same time. Then you have another 5 guys putting the nuts on, then another 5 guys who tighten them down.

Wrong!

I used to work on an assembly line for semi-trailer chassis for container freight. On an average day we might put one out the door every 15 minutes or so. That was start to finish including welding, paint, lights, wiring, airlines, decals etc.

As a comparison to your seat example, try painting a chassis every 15 minutes every day. But one person doesn't. Depending on the chassis there might be 4-6 people painting each one. And that's not including the people doing paint prep and touch up etc.

Robots do all the painting.



I have worked on an assembly line, one person slows down it effects the rest, or a group of them get together and do it. It's not that hard.

The only way to slow down on an GM assembly line is to pull a cord that STOPS the line. This is only to be used for problem calls or quality issues. Use it too often and you won't be working that job for long.

I've seen the same thing on a disassemble line aka slaughter house. The supervisor or crew leader is pushing for more production and turns the line speed up, the workers slow down even more which means the line gets backed up and they have to turn it down slower than before so they can get caught up.

Go take a tour at an assembly plant and you may gain a new perspective.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Originally Posted by Timjoebillybob
You can also say they didn't get a pay cut for dropping the pace down when the demand was down. And I don't know if the auto industry is the same as the steel mills but if they are they do get a pay increase. Their hourly wage doesn't go up but they get paid incentives for any work over a set amount. And at least when my Dad worked in the mills the set amount was very low. Most of the jobs you hit it in half a shift taking your time. And the workers took their time, because if they didn't management could argue that if they were producing x amount a shift every shift then the set amount should be increased. So they worked enough to get the set amount and a bit over for the incentive pay.

Not at an assembly plant

Okay, like I said I didn't know. Thanks for the info.

Why do I get the feeling that you've never worked an assembly line before? I highly doubt that 1 person puts all the seats in a Suburban every 57 seconds. There are probably several stations for each seat and it averages out that the seats get put in in 57 seconds. So you have 5 guys putting in the same seat on five different cars at the same time. Then you have another 5 guys putting the nuts on, then another 5 guys who tighten them down.

Wrong!

Wrong how? Wrong in that one person does put all the seats in a suburban every 57 sec? Or wrong in how it's set up? Or wrong that Jack never worked on an assembly line? Please explain I would like to know.

I used to work on an assembly line for semi-trailer chassis for container freight. On an average day we might put one out the door every 15 minutes or so. That was start to finish including welding, paint, lights, wiring, airlines, decals etc.

As a comparison to your seat example, try painting a chassis every 15 minutes every day. But one person doesn't. Depending on the chassis there might be 4-6 people painting each one. And that's not including the people doing paint prep and touch up etc.

Robots do all the painting.

Not in the semi-trailer plant I worked in. Which is what I was referring to.
The closest thing we had to robots there was a couple of automatic welders for some of the long straight welds.

I have worked on an assembly line, one person slows down it effects the rest, or a group of them get together and do it. It's not that hard.

The only way to slow down on an GM assembly line is to pull a cord that STOPS the line. This is only to be used for problem calls or quality issues. Use it too often and you won't be working that job for long.

So what happens when all the seats don't get put in because the workers are slowing down? Or only half the cars have transmissions? Or the material handlers don't get the parts to them? Or...?

I've seen the same thing on a disassemble line aka slaughter house. The supervisor or crew leader is pushing for more production and turns the line speed up, the workers slow down even more which means the line gets backed up and they have to turn it down slower than before so they can get caught up.


Go take a tour at an assembly plant and you may gain a new perspective.

I'd like to, I'll have to find out if the Subuaru plant in Lafayette does them.

 

[MeltonLaw]

Not every employee was for the shutdown but for the ones that were it could get very difficult to find a job if they're not willing to except 10-$15hr. If they do find a job, I wouldn't expect much from someone that turned down $15hr. before.

This is exactly the point. For some reason these people believe that their skills warrant $29.00/hr. This is especially troubling when their skills, generally, consist of pushing a button and/or removing a part. They have not shown that they are willing to take a decrease in pay, even when the economy does not support their current wages.
Currently, I have a temporary position as an administrative assistant working for $10/hr. I greatly appreciate this job although I have skills that greatly exceed the requirements of the position. As part of this position I am tasked with examining resumes for my permanent replacement. One such resume came from a gentleman who had been laid off from a UAW shop. He had put in several decades worth of time at this particular plant. Thus, he felt that he deserved $25/hr for a position that was posted at $12-$15/hr.
Contrast this with a close friend of mine being offered a job at 55k a year as an associate attorney. This is a very good wage until you factor in that he was expected to work 65-70 hours a week. If you consider the 7 years of school and debt that is required to be qualified for such a position plus the fact that he would be making $15.71 an hour, you may realize why truly skilled professionals do not have sympathy for these people.

 

[eatsnopaste]

Per previous posts, they are worth the $29.00 an hour because that is what the market paid them. However the marketplace changes and they may no longer be worth that much...however, they can still ask for it.

 

[Fletch]

Per previous posts, they are worth the $29.00 an hour because that is what the market paid them.

I disagree that this is necessarily reflective of the market. As I understand it, Depression-era laws pretty much held a gun to GM's head and forced them to negotiate. There was no real opportunity for them to open up the job market to "scabs", ie folks who were willing to do the same job for less. This would thus not be a product of market forces but of coercive ones.