Ground Zero mosque analogy

[ATOMonkey]

I heard the "zoning laws" argument yesterday on the radio, that we don't have true property rights anyway, so why should we pick and choose which to enforce?

I agree that is it wrong to pick and choose where we will apply our anti-property laws and when we won't, but this could be a great time to put a spotlight on the mass infringement government puts on property rights.

I don't see how fighting tyranny with tyranny is going to get us more liberty.

I've wrestled with this myself.

I do not think that allowing them to build the mosque will grant any of us any more property rights, since this is being touted as a 1A issue.

Also, this building represents a group that advocates absolute tyranny. It's not like they're building a statue to honor liberty. I see it as another small step in the march towards Sharia law. A tin hat idea, but who ever thought we'd have a communist working for the president? That only took a little over 100 years to accomplish.

This just doesn't sit right with me. It seems counter intuitive to support a group with principles that run counter to the ideal of Liberty.

So, if this was being brought up as a Property Rights issue, I would probably get behind it, but with some reservation as to the motives of the group.

 

[downzero]

I'd like to know how many of these politicians and people currently supporting the Ground Zero Mosque because it is their right to build it there, spoke out against the NRA rally that was held near Columbine after the school shooting. The rally and the mosque both had First Amendment rights but neither was wise or considerate to the horrific events that happened at either place.

Most gun owners are responsible law abiding citizens that have a right to own and use firearms and also the right to speak about guns and their 2nd Amendment right. The Columbine shooters were not law abiding and not responsible. They were nut cases and they used firearms to murder as many people as they could. Given what happened there, I think the NRA should have relocated their rally further away from Columbine. It would not have made the NRA look guilty of anything. It would have made them considerate to the feelings of the people that lost loved ones.

Regular Muslims did not fly jets into the towers at ground zero, a radical faction that practices the same religion but in a more radical way did that. Kind of like responsible gun owners and criminals that have guns. Now we have a lot of the same people that said the NRA was wrong to have their rally or convention near Columbine, even though it was their right to have it there, saying that it is ok for the mosque to be built at ground zero because it is their right to build it there. They've decided to ignore any consideration to those people that lost loved ones there.

You do realize that the NRA was required to hold that event by law, right?

 

[OZZY.40]

Agreeing with this. If you deny the building of the mosque based on prejudice then we have agreed to throw away our beliefs because of fear.

I agree, but if the money is from a terrorist group, then it should be stopped. What makes me wonder is why a few politicians are for it when so many voters are against it with November right arround the corner.

 

[downzero]

What makes me wonder is why a few politicians are for it when so many voters are against it with November right arround the corner.

With the 1st and 14th amendment issues, I'm not sure why anyone thinks this is an issue for "politicians" to decide.

If you ask me, politicians decide far too much for us already. I don't want them deciding who can be my neighbor.

 

[Expat]

I agree, but if the money is from a terrorist group, then it should be stopped. What makes me wonder is why a few politicians are for it when so many voters are against it with November right arround the corner.

If al-Qaeda wants to donate to the building of the mosque, how is that any business of ours? Similarly if they want to store stuff there and have meetings, they are just exercising their rights. If we can strip their rights away, who is next.

 

[dross]

I'd like to know how many of these politicians and people currently supporting the Ground Zero Mosque because it is their right to build it there, spoke out against the NRA rally that was held near Columbine after the school shooting. The rally and the mosque both had First Amendment rights but neither was wise or considerate to the horrific events that happened at either place.

.

The Columbine/NRA thing is a myth. I live in Colorado.

1. NRA event was scheduled years before in advance. Columbine occurred 11 days before the event.
2. It wasn't a "rally," it was a board of directors meeting required by law that by law couldn't be changed without a period of advance notice that was no longer available.
3. The NRA canceled all events except the BOD meeting, which was required by law.
4. The speeches that Heston gave are a mixture of three, edited to look incriminating. The speeches were the one he gave in Denver - nothing inflammatory, one he gave in NC, and another he gave in Denver a year later.
5. Downtown Denver and Columbine High School are twenty miles from each other - it's about a half hour drive on a good traffic day. Like if Columbine happened in Carmel (actually very similar types of areas) and the NRA BOD meeting was held in south Indianapolis.

Michael Moore didn't mislead, Michael Moore flat out LIED.

 

[ATOMonkey]

If al-Qaeda wants to donate to the building of the mosque, how is that any business of ours? Similarly if they want to store stuff there and have meetings, they are just exercising their rights. If we can strip their rights away, who is next.

Would we tolerate the same behavior from a recognized State/Country that we were at war with?

 

[Expat]

Would we tolerate the same behavior from a recognized State/Country that we were at war with?

I think we should, after all it is most likely our fault that we are at war anyway. We have caused all the world's ills. You must not have listened to Imam Rauf. But I don't blame you for not knowing it. The media doesn't do a good job at bringing to us the non-right wing propaganda.

 

[CarmelHP]

Would we tolerate the same behavior from a recognized State/Country that we were at war with?

I think that was the point, sarcastically made. This thing is supposed to have to require the raising of $100 Million to complete. If it's coming from terrorist financing then anyone connected with it needs to go to jail and funds seized.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

After reflection, I suppose the best way to oppose this triumphal monument to 9/11 would be for New Yorkers to refuse to build it. NYC is a "union shop" for all intents and purposes. The trade unions could refuse to have anything to do with its construction and imagine what would happen if a construction company tried to get scabs to build it in Downtown Manhattan...

 

[Ogre]

Jon Stewart touched on this very issue a week or so ago. In the clip, tho he had a speech from Charleton Heston that really made the point about Columbine and the current situation in NYC. Mr Heston had the right idea.
Jon Stewart on Protecting Our Rights After a Tragedy | The Agitator

I'm not a big fan of Stewarts show, but he nailed it on this one

oh and IBTL

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

Jon Stewart touched on this very issue a week or so ago. In the clip, tho he had a speech from Charleton Heston that really made the point about Columbine and the current situation in NYC. Mr Heston had the right idea.
Jon Stewart on Protecting Our Rights After a Tragedy | The Agitator

Beautiful post brother...


Nothing like a Liberal calling out a neocon(Communist) Rino.

 

[Son of Liberty]

I don't think this is a 1A issue, because this mosque is a monument more than anything else. It's a zoning issue for the local government to decide.

Until we decide as a country that everyone has soverign right to their property (which they currently do not), then it's up to the locals to decide if this building should be allowed.

The Federal government has made no law concerning the the establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof. Therefore, IMO, this does not run afoul of the 1st amendment.

Just one man's opinion.

If these people can build a mosque that honors the "martyrs" of 9/11 then I should be allowed to build whatever the hell I want on my land too. Obviously, I can't, so they can't either.

Your's like most post I have read show a real lack of knowledge and information on this subject.

1. the building is a cultural center, similar in style to that of the
"Y", with classes etc. etc.
2. There is to be a worshipping area inside the building, they building itself is not going to be a mosque.
3. The only thing that will be in the building honoring anyone, will be a memorial for the victims of 9/11


What I also find funny is that all of the government and political, and NG organizations, say that in order to win this type of war we are fighting we need the help of moderate muslims, like the one who is trying to build the center.
The people of our country seem to be so blinded by their grief and anger that they cannot see what this episode is doing to us, within other countries, it's about perceptions, and we are being percieved as muslim hating ignorant a holes, instead of the land of the free, that we are.

It seems a lot of folks have the hey you can be apart of any religion, except we really don't like muslims attitude.
In the day and age we should be smart enough as a people and leaders of the free world, to identify the true threats we face and not fall into the traps that al qadia and other extremist would like us to.

They want us to fight amongst ourselves and the non radical muslims, so that they can say to the young eaisly impressionable young men in stan countries, " look how they treat muslims, it dosen't matter how you are and what you feel, they will hate you just because you are muslim."

We are giving them free propaganda material, for them to use against us.
Remember perceptions cost American lives.

 

[$mooth]

I'm sorry SoL. You will have to leave. This thread was fine without logic, thank you very much.

 

[Expat]

I'm sorry SoL. You will have to leave. This thread was fine without logic, thank you very much.

Excellent, glad to see he has his own little fan

 

[dross]

Your's like most post I have read show a real lack of knowledge and information on this subject.

1. the building is a cultural center, similar in style to that of the
"Y", with classes etc. etc.
2. There is to be a worshipping area inside the building, they building itself is not going to be a mosque.
3. The only thing that will be in the building honoring anyone, will be a memorial for the victims of 9/11


What I also find funny is that all of the government and political, and NG organizations, say that in order to win this type of war we are fighting we need the help of moderate muslims, like the one who is trying to build the center.
The people of our country seem to be so blinded by their grief and anger that they cannot see what this episode is doing to us, within other countries, it's about perceptions, and we are being percieved as muslim hating ignorant a holes, instead of the land of the free, that we are.

It seems a lot of folks have the hey you can be apart of any religion, except we really don't like muslims attitude.
In the day and age we should be smart enough as a people and leaders of the free world, to identify the true threats we face and not fall into the traps that al qadia and other extremist would like us to.

They want us to fight amongst ourselves and the non radical muslims, so that they can say to the young eaisly impressionable young men in stan countries, " look how they treat muslims, it dosen't matter how you are and what you feel, they will hate you just because you are muslim."

We are giving them free propaganda material, for them to use against us.
Remember perceptions cost American lives.

I disagree with this post almost completely. I must refrain from typing my devastating and conclusive attack that would most certainly leave no one who reads it unpersuaded as to the absolute truth of my position. Unfortunately I must refrain in order to follow the rules of the forum.

Suffice to say it would have been overwhelming, conclusive, and eloquent to the point of causing tears to well up in the eyes of the more sensitive souls on this forum.