H&K USP 9mm or H&K P30L ?

[snowwalker]

Obviously your understanding of economic principles in Europe is well below average. Move along.

Where are you at now, Germany or Europe? No country in Europe has bankruptcy laws like Germany (which are draconian compared to the rest of Europe). My link said (from a gun rag) that H&R has more debt than assets AS well as your link:

"With respect to the Financial Statements a distinction has to be made between HKB and HKO. HKB owns 100% of the share capital of HKO and 55% of its own shares (treasury shares). Owning treasury shares is quite common, especially stock listed companies use the instrument of redeeming shares. HKB can sell these shares, or parts thereof, to third parties. Such a sale is an appropriate instrument to raise equity and is thus comparable to a capital increase but would only be possible with the approval of all current shareholders. Based on positive business development such sale is neither necessary nor intended.
The balance sheets of HKO and HKB, based on German GAAP, show liabilities exceeding assets therefore negative equity. This has no impact with regards to insolvency law due to the auditors having confirmed a going concern status"

Bankruptcy laws differ from country to country, I get that, but both articles say that H&K owe more then they have. DO YOU DISAGREE? That is the point I made, and you made too as seen above. As it stands at this moment, you think this is a good thing.

BTW, no need to try and be condescending here, that's just being a jack___.

 

[Manatee]

First of all, my objection is to you raising this issue on the purchase of an H&K product with limited understanding of the facts based on the report of someone who clearly doesn't understand the facts either.

HKO is fully owned by HKB. So, on the surface, it wouldn't matter how much debt HKO had as long as the parent (HKB) acted as guarantor of the debt. HKB owns over 50% of it's own stock. Much of the negative effect on equity was as a result of GAAP accounting during the 2008-2010 financial crisis. On the surface, I'd say that certain long term assets were written down to then present value, but not necessarily as a result of the true economic value underlying the asset. For example, a long term investment might require a writedown to market value (very depressed during the financial crisis) yet the underlying asset will generate much more than the value after writeoff. Also, there are many assets that are not recorded on financial statements: Fully depreciated plant and equipment, patents, trademarks, etc.

The auditors did not give a going concern opinion. To your question, "going concern" is not a term of art. It has specific legal and accounting implications. If a company is in trouble, the auditors MUST give a "going concern" qualification unless other factors render the fact moot.

 

[Manatee]

If you have going concern and continuing investment worries, look no further than here: Freedom Group Unsold 6 Months After Newtown | TPMDC

 

[01deuce]

Hey snowwalker, do you prefer a USP or a P30L ? That's what the thread is about !

 

[dilligaf]

SmokinSigs357, Thanks for the info on the rail adapter. That one looks good. I decided on the USP 9mm, I've had a thing for that pistol since it came out. The P30 has me a little in the looks department, but that that is just opinion. Thanks to all for the replies. I'll let you all know how I like it when I get it paid off.....

 

[snowwalker]

Hey snowwalker, do you prefer a USP or a P30L ? That's what the thread is about !

Well in that case neither one. As with most European guns the bore axis is very high and the reason why, who knows? Arsenal makes a Strike One pistol I loved to see sold in the US. It's bore axis ratio is lower than a Glock and not many pistols can say that.

 

[dilligaf]

Well in that case neither one. As with most European guns the bore axis is very high and the reason why, who knows? Arsenal makes a Strike One pistol I loved to see sold in the US. It's bore axis ratio is lower than a Glock and not many pistols can say that.

Why bother to post on this thread, if you don't like either one ?

 

[snowwalker]

Why bother to post on this thread, if you don't like either one ?

See my op, just trying to help others out.

 

[01deuce]

See my op, just trying to help others out.

Or just maybe you don't like HK and wanted to bash a little ? Heckler & Koch isn't going away !

OP congrats on the USP. I don't have a P30L, but a few P30's and USP's and I shoot the USP's better. Still love the P30 though!

 

[dilligaf]

Or just maybe you don't like HK and wanted to bash a little ? Heckler & Koch isn't going away !

OP congrats on the USP. I don't have a P30L, but a few P30's and USP's and I shoot the USP's better. Still love the P30 though!

Thanks for congrats. As far as H&K's finances go I can't comment, but I think the USP has been around long enough to have good aftermarket support. This had no bearing on my descision on the USP over the P30L.
I just like the feel and looks of the USP over the P30l.

 

[IronRanger1080]

I faced the same delima and after shooting both preferred the P30 hands down. The toughest decision for me was which variant of P30 to get. I went with the P30S V3 with the ambidextrious manual safety and have no regrets. It allows cocked and locked carrying (my preferred) or double action, even though th DA first pull is a little heavier it gives me the most versatiity, the slide release lever is shorter on the S variants also which is nice. Can't go wrong with H&K.

 

[dilligaf]

I lied when I said I'm getting the USP. I Got a USP on layaway (soon) to pick up. I got a P30 V2 LEM today on trade. I guess I'm getting both !! Have to shoot it soon, but overall nice pistol w/great ergo's, the looks are growing on me.

 

[ARdysfunction]

I have used both the GG&G and Surefire rail adapters for the USP with good results.
I would pick up which ever I could find a deal on.

Congrats on the HK's !!!

 

[sparkyfender]

Nice!
H&K makes good stuff. Not to everyone's taste, but I like them. Enjoy your new handguns.

 

[Hohn]

First of all, my objection is to you raising this issue on the purchase of an H&K product with limited understanding of the facts based on the report of someone who clearly doesn't understand the facts either.

HKO is fully owned by HKB. So, on the surface, it wouldn't matter how much debt HKO had as long as the parent (HKB) acted as guarantor of the debt. HKB owns over 50% of it's own stock. Much of the negative effect on equity was as a result of GAAP accounting during the 2008-2010 financial crisis. On the surface, I'd say that certain long term assets were written down to then present value, but not necessarily as a result of the true economic value underlying the asset. For example, a long term investment might require a writedown to market value (very depressed during the financial crisis) yet the underlying asset will generate much more than the value after writeoff. Also, there are many assets that are not recorded on financial statements: Fully depreciated plant and equipment, patents, trademarks, etc.

The auditors did not give a going concern opinion. To your question, "going concern" is not a term of art. It has specific legal and accounting implications. If a company is in trouble, the auditors MUST give a "going concern" qualification unless other factors render the fact moot.

Excellent post, Manatee.


SnowWalker-- you are assigning far too much weight to HK owing more than they currently have in assets. Guess what? That's true for almost every newlywed that buys a house. They, too will owe more than they are worth. Does it matter?

What really matters is whether or not the creditor feels there is reason to believe they will ever get paid back. When you buy a home, you're credit comes not primarily from the assets you already have, but by your future earning power, discounted for the risk you will mismanage those future cash flows. If the bank feels they will never get their money back, then they'd either foreclose, short sale, or never make the loan to begin with.


That said, business finance is VERY different than personal finance. Debt to a business is far less significant. A business can get capital from either debt or equity, and there are times when favoring one over the other is desirable.

Let's take Apple as an example. They currently are sitting on something like $150B in cash and liquid assets (short term securities). How much can they make on those assets? The rate of return for liquid assets right now really sucks-- you're lucky to get 2%. Even you have $150B to invest.

Apple has a weighted average cost of capital of something like 10.3%. In other words, with their current debt/equity balance (favoring equity with all that cash), Apple is essentially paying 10.3% interest on all the capital it uses-- because it is holding so much cash.

If Apple COULD borrow a ton of money (and go way into debt) at super-low rates and drop the WACC to something like 6% or even less. By holding equity, Apple is destroying as much as ~$20B a year in capital. Poof! Gone. Debt for Apple would actually MAKE money-- or at least reduce the amount they are destroying.


All that to say that business debt-to-asset snapshot on a balance sheet is woefully insufficient to tell you about the true financial health of a business. What really matters are the future cash flows and the structure of the debt/equity and the discount rates that apply to each.

 

[tallerthan28]

have you looked at getting a P7? the are a classic but man do they shoot straight. I love the P7 above all other Hk.

 

[Jacobcuvelier]

I've done a lot of research on them both and it seems like p30 and p30l are the best out right now.

 

[dilligaf]

have you looked at getting a P7? the are a classic but man do they shoot straight. I love the P7 above all other Hk.

That is definitely on my list. That is an incredible pistol, I want one.