Handguns: high capacity vs conceal-ability/ single vs double stack

[Justin727]

I suppose I will chime in on this one:

IMO the notion that you MUST dress around the weapon is ridiculous although I do respect that belief if you choose to have it. One of my first threads on this forum I found myself being bashed by another member on this subject. I do not remember the exact details but to sum it up I was looking for a new single stack 9mm that was easy for a 6ft tall 160 lb man to conceal. (The Shield 9mm fit the bill perfectly). The other member’s opinion was that I should buy a double stack and "dress around the gun" stating that when off duty he always wears cargo pants and Hawaiian shirts. Okay cool, good for you. BUT for me... well... ONE: my closet has more than just cargo pants and Hawaiian shirts in it. TWO: Even if I wore a Hawaiian shirt I bet a G17/22 would still print relatively bad. Not often, but sometimes, I am not even comfortable carrying the Shield (assuming I am trying to conceal). At some point on here I asked if anyone carries while they workout, mainly while running. I received numerous responses many to the tune of "Oh just get you a Glock 26 or 27, wear sweatpants, and cover that bad boy up by wearing sweatpants!" I am sorry, but I just cannot imagine running (for exercise) with a Glock 26/27 strapped to my ankle. (or wearing sweatpants while running outside in July)


My conclusion: If I should find myself in a situation where I need to defend myself with a firearm I want to have a weapon that I am confident in. Something I know will work every time and that I am proficient with. And believe it or not, with practice I have found that almost anyone can be proficient with anything of decent quality. For example, my girlfriend sure didn’t like that long heavy trigger pull of my S&W 642-2 but after a relatively low amount of range time she was hitting her target every time.
For me there are three firearms that fit my needs perfectly. They are a Glock 19, Smith & Wesson Shield 9mm, and a Ruger LCP. I carry the G19 or Shield depending on what I am wearing. (Summer tends to promote carrying of the Shield more often while the winter I tend to carry the G19 more. Either one is always accompanied by the LCP in a pocket holster. AND on occasion I find myself with just the LCP (rare, but it does happen from time to time). Oh and just for the sake of clarity the Glock 19 is carried OWB in a custom kydex holster to accommodate the x300 Surefire and the Shield is also carried in an OWB kydex holster. I always want to have the most firepower possible for the given situation so with that being said I do plan to explore some other holster options in the future that may help me to be able to carry the Shield in a situation where I previously only carried the LCP or carry the G19 in a situation where I carried the Shield etc.
Oh... one last thing, the LCP works great in a belly band for you runners out there. That is of course unless you prefer to run with a brick strapped to one leg.

Just my opinion on the subject. Take it for what its worth.. (which probably is not much haha)

 

[firefighterjohn]

I have to do the same. With the recent murders at Purdue and the Elkhart Martin's, many people at work have been talking about concealed carry. Then the question I get asked: "Do you have your LTCH?" I always respond that I'd thought about getting mine soon. I keep quiet and stay vague...having had it now for over 5 years...and deep conceal carry everyday. No one knows and no one WILL know...

Some of us have to deep conceal to keep from a unwanted outcome; work, hospitals, doctor's office, restaurants and other GFZ.

 

[Justin727]

I have to do the same. With the recent murders at Purdue and the Elkhart Martin's, many people at work have been talking about concealed carry. Then the question I get asked: "Do you have your LTCH?" I always respond that I'd thought about getting mine soon. I keep quiet and stay vague...having had it now for over 5 years...and deep conceal carry everyday. No one knows and no one WILL know...

^^THIS^^

I dont want to be in a situation where I have to leave my firearm in my car while eating in a GFZ for example or inhabiting any GFZ for that matter. While I tend to try not to support establishments who have GFZ signs (I realize the sign has no law bearing power) I have found myself in sitations where it was unavoidable. For example: My buddies all agree to meet a "XYZ" restaraunt to watch the game. Said restaraunt has a GFZ sign in the window. Depending on what I am wearing and how concealed my G19 or Shield 9mm is I may determine that I can go unnoticed but if I dont feel I can get by, the LCP is always in my pocket and no one in that restaraunt would ever know. So I guess what my overall point is between my two posts is that IMHO you need to be flexible or atleast I FEEL LIKE I need to be flexible in what I carry.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

can you get to that Khar quickly? Just looks like it might be faster in the front pocket.

It's not too bad. Just rip the shirt up and draw. Carrying it IWB isn't the fastest but it's very comfortable and concealable. And if I have another covering garment on I obviously don't use the tuck feature.

I feel that the CM9 is too big for front pocket in most jeans. Too tight so it prints and is hard to get out of the pocket. I don't like it even in pants where it fits because usually if it fits than it will spend all day banging into my leg as i walk.

 

[rjklein4470]

I suppose I will chime in on this one:

IMO the notion that you MUST dress around the weapon is ridiculous although I do respect that belief if you choose to have it. One of my first threads on this forum I found myself being bashed by another member on this subject. I do not remember the exact details but to sum it up I was looking for a new single stack 9mm that was easy for a 6ft tall 160 lb man to conceal. (The Shield 9mm fit the bill perfectly). The other member’s opinion was that I should buy a double stack and "dress around the gun" stating that when off duty he always wears cargo pants and Hawaiian shirts. Okay cool, good for you. BUT for me... well... ONE: my closet has more than just cargo pants and Hawaiian shirts in it. TWO: Even if I wore a Hawaiian shirt I bet a G17/22 would still print relatively bad. Not often, but sometimes, I am not even comfortable carrying the Shield (assuming I am trying to conceal). At some point on here I asked if anyone carries while they workout, mainly while running. I received numerous responses many to the tune of "Oh just get you a Glock 26 or 27, wear sweatpants, and cover that bad boy up by wearing sweatpants!" I am sorry, but I just cannot imagine running (for exercise) with a Glock 26/27 strapped to my ankle. (or wearing sweatpants while running outside in July)


My conclusion: If I should find myself in a situation where I need to defend myself with a firearm I want to have a weapon that I am confident in. Something I know will work every time and that I am proficient with. And believe it or not, with practice I have found that almost anyone can be proficient with anything of decent quality. For example, my girlfriend sure didn’t like that long heavy trigger pull of my S&W 642-2 but after a relatively low amount of range time she was hitting her target every time.
For me there are three firearms that fit my needs perfectly. They are a Glock 19, Smith & Wesson Shield 9mm, and a Ruger LCP. I carry the G19 or Shield depending on what I am wearing. (Summer tends to promote carrying of the Shield more often while the winter I tend to carry the G19 more. Either one is always accompanied by the LCP in a pocket holster. AND on occasion I find myself with just the LCP (rare, but it does happen from time to time). Oh and just for the sake of clarity the Glock 19 is carried OWB in a custom kydex holster to accommodate the x300 Surefire and the Shield is also carried in an OWB kydex holster. I always want to have the most firepower possible for the given situation so with that being said I do plan to explore some other holster options in the future that may help me to be able to carry the Shield in a situation where I previously only carried the LCP or carry the G19 in a situation where I carried the Shield etc.
Oh... one last thing, the LCP works great in a belly band for you runners out there. That is of course unless you prefer to run with a brick strapped to one leg.

Just my opinion on the subject. Take it for what its worth.. (which probably is not much haha)

Ok, when I first started to carry, everybody was telling me that 4:00 position was the best. Well as soon as you bend over regardless what you have it looks bad.

So I started to carry between the 2:00-3:00 position and bingo it was perfect. You might try it, Milts Sparks VmaxII works great in that position.

Rob

 

[gregkl]

Ok, when I first started to carry, everybody was telling me that 4:00 position was the best. Well as soon as you bend over regardless what you have it looks bad.

So I started to carry between the 2:00-3:00 position and bingo it was perfect. You might try it, Milts Sparks VmaxII works great in that position.

Rob

I have thought about that. How does it work when you sit down? I'm sitting right now wondering if I could even sit down with it tucked in at 2:00.

 

[brotherbill3]

OK a few quick thoughts ... (why not) ... I think this has been a good discussion ...

1) my experience w/ a few different carry guns and holsters - and the need - to conceal (rules,work, family imposed FZ's etc ...)
thickness is IMHO the largest contributing factor to concealablity or lack their of; followed by 'height' or grip length
... weight is the other important factor.

2) new gun owner's / LTCH holding carriers (my daughter is an example) ... want 1 gun; and no they don't want to 'adjust for the gun' ...
size matters, she's looking at an M&P Shield, (though if Glock gets the 9mm version of the 42 out first - that's a possiblity)
While I'm glad she's got the LTCH, and interest, she hasn't learned that carrying sometime will be a compromise;
we can choose to compromise: 1) on the gun; 2) on the way we dress; or 3) the places we go. - ...

3) Wife and I are looking at smaller; (G19, G26 respectively as 'EDC')
she wants something to work with other outfits and
I want something w/ more power than my current EDDCC (Every Day Deep Conceal) / BUG
... most days it isn't a BUG / it's all I've got ... it is carried w/ a spare mag.
It would be same w/ the wife; it isn't a BUG, its a EDDCC that is carried when the G19 just doesn't work.
She will not like to shoot it much; but will do sufficient training to be sure of its use and that's about it.

4) ??? over carrying while running. I've seen this discussion before; I guess some of us care what we look like when running / riding; I do not.
... I run / ride bike w/ the 26 and spare mag, on my hip. The bike or running stuff underneath with cutoff cargo pants and shirt over top and the gun IWB or OWB as I feel like it. Do I look odd compared to the people in all compression gear? yeah. so what. LOL (that's a big IMHO) ...

 

[jmoore]

I carry a Glock 23 and love it but there are times when I wish I had a pocket gun. I have small hands so don't think it would effect the way I shoot.

 

[Hoosierkav]

I don't carry (yet), but I wonder about the idea of carrying "almost concealed", where maybe an inch or so of the holster is seen, or you do print and you don't care.

It would seem to satisfy the "I don't care who knows I carry" and the "I don't want to advertise it to the world" crowds... maybe such as when you go to Starbucks (not to resurrect the dead horse)--you will be respectful of the establishment/situation, but you aren't going to go out of your way to hide what you are carrying.

 

[firefighterjohn]

Justin, I like your approach and flexibility; never without one. It's a mindset that you need your tools with you ALL time. But every tool isn't suitable for for every task. It's tiring reading posts like: "I only carry a XXX or a YYY...blah, blah, blah". Being able to adjust to any surrounding or situation is the key.

Have you tried ankle carry of your Shield? I've thought that might be a good option since I usually am sitting at my desk at work, wear wide leg jeans, and my deep conceal pocket carry might be hard to pull from seated position. A 9mm Shield is my next purchase and will experiment on conceal methods, just haven't heard of anyone ankle carrying one.

 

[ru44mag]

I can't really answer for anyone else, but I carry a Browning HiPower. I don't have any problems concealing it, either.

I do carry my Hi-Power, sometimes, and really like to carry it. I shoot better with it, especially when I move back to 25 yards or so...but my CM9 is way more comfortable to carry. And I shoot it really well also. I carry 2 extra mags with me. 1 in each front pocket inside my sneaky Pete mag holders.

 

[rjklein4470]

I have thought about that. How does it work when you sit down? I'm sitting right now wondering if I could even sit down with it tucked in at 2:00.

seated is not a problem

 

[nashfred01]

These days, I don't see any reason to not go double stack. If it is me and my family in danger, I want to make sure I have enough gun. I like bigger guns, but then again, I understand the conceal ability issue. For a carry gun, I would have a double stack compact size. JMHO.

 

[Psode27]

I carry an XDS 45 or a Kimber ultra carry II. I have double stack handguns but skinny framed ones tend to fit me better when I am carrying. I may not always keep that opinion, but as of now that's where I stand. When I can't (or don't feel like) carrying a bigger gun, my LCP comes with me in a pocket holster. No, its not ideal, but I'll I feel that I can still shoot it well enough its a decent trade off. For me, as long as I'm carrying, and can shoot well with what I'm carrying, I'm happy.

 

[Justin727]

Justin, I like your approach and flexibility; never without one. It's a mindset that you need your tools with you ALL time. But every tool isn't suitable for for every task. It's tiring reading posts like: "I only carry a XXX or a YYY...blah, blah, blah". Being able to adjust to any surrounding or situation is the key.

Have you tried ankle carry of your Shield? I've thought that might be a good option since I usually am sitting at my desk at work, wear wide leg jeans, and my deep conceal pocket carry might be hard to pull from seated position. A 9mm Shield is my next purchase and will experiment on conceal methods, just haven't heard of anyone ankle carrying one.

I am sorry that I have not replied yet. I have not been able to be on here lately due to work. ANYWAYS...

I have not carried the Shield on my ankle. Personally I have a bad taste in my mouth about ankle carry. This distaste* was not developed without cause. My grandfather was murdered in 1986 while fishing on a pier. The attacker came up from behind him and hit him in the back of the head, when my grandpa turned around the attacker shoved him into Lake Michigan. His rubber waders filled up with water and he drowned. My grandpa carried a .38spl on his ankle... The way the story was told to me, I doubt he had much of a chance either way being that he was attacked from behind but ever since I was told what happened to him I said I'd never carry on my ankle.

I am becoming more open minded to the thought of ankle carry. This would probably be used to carry a BUG. I doubt I would ever carry just on my ankle. I work from a home office so fortunately I can do whatever I want as far as carrying. I also have to travel to meet customers which often restricts what I can carry greatly. This is why I choose to remain flexible.

Okay I kind of went of on a tangent there.... long story short I have not yet ankle carried a Shield but people ankle carry Glock 26/27's all the time so I'd imagine carrying a Shield on the ankle would work fine. I do plan to look into ankle holsters for my Shield soon. Please let me know if you find a good one.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I carry a Kahr PM9. I carry OWB so it's not about concealment for me. I like the light weight and it's more comfortable when seated. I carried a spare mag even when I carried my FNP. Why, because mags can fail. How often do self defense shootings turn into gun fights? I feel 16 rounds is plenty. If I need more than that, I'm in a really bad situation in my opinion.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Not realizing this was an older thread, I read the whole thing again tonight, and I had a few thoughts.

Some people are saying that they don't understand the mindset of carrying less than the best, that they won't compromise, etc. Here's how I think of it. Everything about carrying a firearm for defense is a risk assessment. From the decision to carry itself, through everything we talk about - caliber, capacity, size, extra magazine carry - are all subject to the risk vs reward equations in our heads. Obviously different people have different tolerance for risk, but more than that everyone will assign different levels of risk for something based on their individual situations. For example, when weighing the effectiveness of one of the 'marginal' loads like .380, somebody from Indiana who might have to face potential targets' heavy clothing all winter might think it is more risky than somebody who lives in Miami.

So if you're one of those people who think "two is one and one is none" and who always carry the extra magazine and dress around your full-size weapon plus BUG, and you just can't understand those of us who don't, realize that we aren't compromising by accepting the fact that we unsafe like you may think we are. We think we're safe enough for the risks we are worried about. It's not laziness of thought or denial of reality; we just have a different answer to the question.

For me, probability plays a big part in the answer I come up with. The rule is to find the probability of two things happening, you multiply their individual probabilities together. For example, there is a 1 in 36 chance of rolling snake-eyes on two dice, 1 in 6 times 1 in 6. So every discussion about the chance of the magazine failing, or actually needing 15 rounds, or some such has to start with the already-small chance of needing to defend yourself at all then get further reduced by the chance that a magazine fails or whatever. To pull numbers out of the air, if there's a 1 in 10,000 chance of me needing to defend myself with a gun and a 1 in 1000 chance a magazine will fail, there is a 1 in ten million chance a magazine will fail when I need it. To me, personally, those are odds I can live with. Many of you obviously feel that any chance is too much risk and needs to be addressed, but the fact that I don't isn't just because I'm too lazy to carry an extra mag.

I've had a similar conversation with people who don't understand why I choose to carry at all. They will point out that the likelihood of my needing to protect myself is very small. My answer has always been some variation of "Yes, but if I need it then I'll really need it." If you need a gun, there's no substitute for a gun. It's a binary, yes or no situation. But to me, all the other stuff we're talking about are NOT that binary choice, they are matters of degree. Would I like to have a rifle to defend myself? Sure, but that's rarely practical so a handgun isn't so bad. It'd be nice to have a hot .357 or 10mm load, but a 9mm (or less in some circumstances) is nothing to sneeze at either. Sixteen-plus-one is great, but I can do a lot of work with just six if I need to. No, I can't fire as fast with a smaller weapon so I'll just have to take my time and make those shots count. If the laser fails, I'll go back to iron. In the worst extremis if the magazine fails, you could even load rounds individually as a last resort. None of that is possible if you don't have a gun at all. That's what I think people mean when they say "Better than nothing", "At least it's a gun", etc in defending their less-than-ideal choices. Nobody ever finished a story about having a gun pointed at them by saying, "Then I relaxed because I realized it was just a .32".

 

[throttletony]

many others have stated, and I'll add, that it came down to concealability for me. Yes, I carry an extra mag.
My shield, which is about 1/4 inch thinner than my previous glocks, carries much better. Weight is barely any different, but the thinness had me converted instantly.
I had a very hard time believing it wold make that much difference, but *** cue the organ music *** I've seen the light!
To each, his/her own.
I still have 16 rds (between the 2 mags) and feel more than adequately covered. Hell, I almost got a LCR and would have felt fine with that.

 

[Dirka74]

I carry several different styles of guns. From full sized 1911s to J Frames. It depends on my mood. I have asked myself the question if 5 shots is enough. I guess it depends on the situation, but I looked it up. On average 2.2 shots are fired in a confrontation. Out of 482 incidents only 2 reloaded. I am willing to sacrifice some rounds for comfort and conceal ability. Here is an interesting quick read.

Analysis of Five Years of Armed Encounters (With Data Tables)

 

[JohnMcClane]

Interesting read... Thx