Hassled by Buffalo Wild Wings for OC at Dupont, Fort Wayne

[mk2ja]

Oh man. I spent all that time writing that post, even repping finity for his good posts, and then he went and ruined it with all the yelling.


PS - no military yet, still working on bloody paperwork to get in. And working out a lot.

 

[IndyBeerman]

Some people aren't getting the message:

YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS ON PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!

If you don't believe me try to sue a private non-business party for a rights infringment. It won't work. You can't sue me because I told you to shut up. You can't sue me because I didn't like you because of your religion or ethnicity. You can't sue me because I didn't invite you to a party at my house for one of the above reasons.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS ON PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!

If you want to be able to carry a gun on private property without the owner having any say in it then get someone to PASS A LAW! Just like it was done recently for the employer parking lot law that was enacted. Take the next step. Until then YOU HAVE NO "RIGHT" TO CARRY A GUN ON SOMEONE'S PRIVATE PROPERTY.

It won't be illegal if you do but it is still "wrong". I shouldn't have to tell you to leave. You should be mature enough to not push the issue & put it in someone's face.

IF I OC into a store that has a "no guns" sign then I should only expect trouble (which is why I CC there ). Who in their "reasonable" mind would think otherwise? Why would you OC into a store that is posted "no guns" EXCEPT to stir up trouble?

Since...

YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS ON PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!

...that could be the ONLY reasonable expected outcome of that action - hence the charges of doing it just to "cause trouble". If you do get a negative response in a situation like that YOU HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT YOURSELF. If it doesn't happen that way then consider yourself lucky. If I CC & get found out I would accept that I did something "wrong". I would be a little sheepish (FTR, that's totally different than "sheeple") & completely accept the chewing I would rightly get from the owner.

If the place isn't posted then as soon as the owner lets you know their policy you are now back to it being a known "no guns" location. Either follow the owners wishes or leave.

DO THE RIGHT THING WITHOUT HAVING TO BE TOLD TO DO IT OR WITHOUT THERE NEEDING TO BE A LAW ABOUT IT!!

Why is that so hard to understand?

Isn't that what they taught you in the military, mk2ja?

What is so hard for you to understand, do you know if in fact that this is a corporate BWW, or a franchisee? If a franchisee, corporate crap don't mean , because they do not own the business.

So until it is determined which it is, rein it in.

Now what you do on you own PRIVATE property when they have to be invited on to be there is different than private property where in order for them to do business where they allow you to to be there.

Don't confuse the two, they fall under two totally different classes.

You walk into "Joe's buy it all here store" where the public IS invited in to do business and you slam someone about their religion or ethnicity, and you better have a real darn good lawyer.

Do it on your own private "Personal" property where the public is not invited and for all I'm concerned is you can run around naked and howl at the moon and pee on every tree.

The two are different.

Now, you assume that Mk2ja is the military, no sir he is not, but he will be joining the USMC, so you can't be taught something when you've not been there.

 

[finity]

[

I happen to disagree with those laws and in (my)perfect world, there would be no gray area. Private property owners would be just that and could maintain whatever standards they see fit. However, in the world in which we actually live, I would hazard a guess that this particular establishment and most if not all others are not strictly private property as they have most likely received either some type of tax deferral, loan or other such subsidy from the state(i.e., you and me). Therefore, they no longer fall under the guise of "private property" and have no claim to discriminate on any grounds.

Heck if that's the case then there are very few ACTUAL completely private properties. My house isn't private because I got VA benefits when I bought it. Your house isn't private either if you have taken the homestead tax exemption. Looks like we need to let those "undesireables" take up positions on the couch for the night.

There are no rights based on color, creed, etc. nor are they a code of conduct that we as a society have agreed upon. I don't recall agreeing to them at least (whether they be a good code or not is not the debate).

You agreed to them by virtue of the fact that you choose to continue living in this society. You are always free to find a different society which falls more closely in with your ideals. Good luck on your quest.

We don't always all have to agree with all the laws but that doesn't mean we don't have to follow them (or accept the consequences of not following them) until we can change them. All you have to do is get a bigger group to agree with you than agrees with me & you would have your way. I think in this case it would be fairly difficult because most people are reasonable enough to see the benefits in providing equal access to goods & services for everyone irrespective of their basic human differences.

As has been said many times here and elsewhere, you don't have the right not to be offended or your dignity bespoiled.

I agree & have said the same thing before.

You don't have the Right (big R) to not be offended but you have the "right" through codification into law to not be discriminated against for goods, services, employment, etc. You have the "right" to be safe from harm through violence or deception.

As for the government being open to anyone, I don't believe you are that naive. The state has never been an entity that operates on fairness and openness. It is not restricted in any manner other than what it allows itself to be restricted.

It's not just my idea. The Founders felt exactly the same. If I am naïve because I believe that’s the way it should be then so be it. I’m in good company.

I understand that it may not be perfect in it’s execution but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t at least continue to try to attain that standard.

 

[finity]

Oh man. I spent all that time writing that post, even repping finity for his good posts, and then he went and ruined it with all the yelling.

Sometimes you just have to speak up to really be heard.

PS - no military yet, still working on bloody paperwork to get in. And working out a lot.

OOPS.

I assumed wrongly because of a reference you made to a "military haircut".

 

[snowman46919]

Can't we all live in our own special world where our laws are arbitrary to the volition of our own free will and can infringe on the rights of others.

I think what we can draw from this is we as a community (as in most of us) agree that you should carry, it does not matter if open, concealed, IWB, OWB, as long as you carry responsibly. The fear of people who open carry should be addressed and we as the community at risk are the best ones to decide how to handle it. So maybe we should take a step back and not necessarily organize an open carry event to simply go eat at an establishment where we are shunned but instead have an open carry event where we educate through outreach instead of practice. As someone who has been harassed by a drunkard who could not even remember the event and drove drunk home across two counties afterwards we open carriers are irresponsible.

 

[finity]

What is so hard for you to understand, do you know if in fact that this is a corporate BWW, or a franchisee? If a franchisee, corporate crap don't mean , because they do not own the business.

So until it is determined which it is, rein it in.

It doesn't matter. At all. Not one little bit.

Whether it is corporate owned or a mom & pop, it's still private property. You have to follow their rules (outside of the aforementioned protected classes) or leave. That's it.

If they say you need to go stand on your head in the corner, you have two (reasonable, mature) choices - stand on your head in the corner or leave. It is very immature to argue with someone over "your rights" when those "right" don't exist.

Now what you do on you own PRIVATE property when they have to be invited on to be there is different than private property where in order for them to do business where they allow you to to be there.

First, I don't have to be invited onto your property. Into your home, probably. Simply onto your property, no.

I can be "disinvited" by the posting of a "no trespassing" sign at the property boundary but barring that I can enter onto your property until you tell me to leave at which time I would be trespassing.

Don't confuse the two, they fall under two totally different classes.

Not "totally" but somewhat.

It's still private property. It just has a few more rules to ensure safety & non-discrimination.

You walk into "Joe's buy it all here store" where the public IS invited in to do business and you slam someone about their religion or ethnicity, and you better have a real darn good lawyer.

Do it on your own private "Personal" property where the public is not invited and for all I'm concerned is you can run around naked and howl at the moon and pee on every tree.

The two are different.

The only thing that makes them different & allows a business to be sued for discrimination are the laws that say, specifically, that "you will not discriminate against x, y, z, etc. under penalty of law." Otherwise the business could discriminate at will with impunity...like it was before those laws were passed in the 60's.

It has nothing to do with the public being invited or not.

If I invite the public onto my property for a free hot dog roast I can still slam away at their religion or ethnicity all day long without fear of being sued.

If I'm a private "members only" shopping club (ala Sam's Club) & I charge muslims more for their membership fees than I do other religions then I can be sued for discrimination (I think - that may be a bad example but you get the point).

Now, you assume that Mk2ja is the military, no sir he is not, but he will be joining the USMC, so you can't be taught something when you've not been there.

Sorry, as I explained above I made a bad assumption.

OOPS.

However that's something that most parents teach their kids.

Are you saying bapak2ja is falling down on the job?

(PS. mk2ja, that is your dad right? or am I making another bad assumption & remembering incorrectly? If so I apologize pre-emptively)

(PPS. I'm also not saying that he is falling down on the job if he is your dad. I'm using it to make a point. No offense intended)

 

[mk2ja]

Sometimes you just have to speak up to really be heard.




OOPS.

I assumed wrongly because of a reference you made to a "military haircut".

Since I am working on getting in, I do try to look the part. As Sgt. Highway (Eastwood) says in Heartbreak Ridge, "I want your hair high and tight by tomorrow morning. When you start looking like Marines, you'll start feeling like Marines, and then G--d--nit, you'll start acting like Marines!"

If I invite the public onto my property for a free hot dog roast I can still slam away at their religion or ethnicity all day long without fear of being sued.

If I'm a private "members only" shopping club (ala Sam's Club) & I charge muslims more for their membership fees than I do other religions then I can be sued for discrimination (I think - that may be a bad example but you get the point).



Sorry, as I explained above I made a bad assumption.

OOPS.

However that's something that most parents teach their kids.

Are you saying bapak2ja is falling down on the job?

(PS. mk2ja, that is your dad right? or am I making another bad assumption & remembering incorrectly? If so I apologize pre-emptively)

(PPS. I'm also not saying that he is falling down on the job if he is your dad. I'm using it to make a point. No offense intended)

Your assumption is correct there: Bapak2ja is my own Pa. And he's a pretty darn good one, if I say so myself!

Question - what if you want to sell hot dogs - or, say, the child of an ignorant set of parents wants to have a lemonade stand - on your own property, right by the sidewalk. Is it permissible to refuse to sell to protected classes? The child doesn't want to sell to the lesbians down the street or maybe the Muslims next door or even their Mexican maid's young daughter. Private property. Discrimination legal? (For reference, I'm not applying this to the situation in the OP, just a thought that arose as I read your post.)

 

[Hammerhead]

Finity, you're confusing morals with obligations. I'm not obligated by any means to follow any request a restaurant manager makes, aside from leave, or pay, or don't come back. Any other request is just that. A request. He/she can request all day long that I do whatever action they might want me to. I'm not required to, nor obligated to.

However, you keep saying that we should, out of some duty to be nice, or moral, or whatever. Integrity is defined as doing the right thing even when no one is looking. So my integrity comes into question when I choose not to follow a request I deem silly? (Not saying you're doing so within this discussion, just being generalistic.)

Why, all of a sudden, is following company policy, or a request the right thing to do? No, I don't have to. I can choose to. I do have rights that not even private property can magically make disappear. I have a right to life. I have a right to protect said life. They can ask me to leave, but until then, I am under no obligation in any way whatsoever to comply with any other request.

I choose not to do things socially unacceptable, like whizzing in the corner, or spitting on the floor. Doesn't mean I'm following their rules. Some people think it's socially unacceptable to OC with their kids nearby (think of the children!). I choose to OC, and they can take a flying leap.

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

I know this is potentially an unpopular stance here, but...

I'm not looking at this thread as an OC vs. CC argument. I'm just trying to look at the OP, as written: OPer walked into an establishment, was asked to cover up his weapon, at which point the OP became argumentative. Whether the OP was in the right, morally or legally, the BW3 manager was not the one who escalated the situation.

Who knows what was going on from the manager's point of view. For all we know, he went over to the table thinking, "Jeez, that creepy old lady at table six is all freaked out because this guy has a gun. I know and respect that he can legally carry, and I don't want to ask him to leave because he's not doing anything wrong. Good thing people with a LTCH are generally polite, level headed folks. I'll just ask him to cover it up, the lady will probably forget it's even there. "

...And walked away thinking, "Jeez, I just can't win today. I'll just tell the lady at table six he's a cop so she'll shut up. Guess I was wrong about LTCH holders. Maybe there's something to that corporate policy they keep telling me to enforce..."

Yes, it's a completely hypothetical situation, but not all battles are won by fighting. Just my

 

[Mr. Habib]

It has been quite some time since I have been in a BW3, but I remember them being very dimly lit. I would question if anybody would even notice a gun. I have to wonder if anyone really complained to the manager. I can't imagine a sheeple actually seeing the OP's gun, complaining to the manager, and then being happy with it still being present but just covered. I would think it more likely that the manager used that as an excuse to ask the OP to cover it to prevent that situation from arising.If not why would he not insist that the OP leave to keep the other customers calm.

 

[rmabrey]

at which point the OP became argumentative.

Argumentative is not even close to the correct word, Ive met the OP and his Father and I can assure you, he was nothing but polite, regardless of how people take his post.

 

[mk2ja]

It has been quite some time since I have been in a BW3, but I remember them being very dimly lit. I would question if anybody would even notice a gun. I have to wonder if anyone really complained to the manager. I can't imagine a sheeple actually seeing the OP's gun, complaining to the manager, and then being happy with it still being present but just covered. I would think it more likely that the manager used that as an excuse to ask the OP to cover it to prevent that situation from arising.If not why would he not insist that the OP leave to keep the other customers calm.

Yeah, it was rather dim in there, as usual at BWW. And with me being in the corner as I was, I wasn't really expecting any trouble over it.

We'd been there a while before the manager came around. Long enough to order, sit and wait for the food to arrive, and eat about half of it.

I'll tell you what though, and I think I didn't mention this earlier, when the waiter went to the booth in the corner, I saw him bend over so he could hear the woman whispering, then he stood up and turned to face the room, and then leaned over again. I thought to myself, I bet they are talking about my gun. Sure enough, he left, and it was just a few moments later that the manager arrived. The manager said there were "complaints", so I don't know if that was the only table to complain or not. But they'd been there longer than we had been, so it took them a while to notice and/or finally get so scared by my suspicious behavior they wanted to tell their waiter.

I don't think the manager saw that I was OC'ing beforehand.

 

[finity]

Your assumption is correct there: Bapak2ja is my own Pa. And he's a pretty darn good one, if I say so myself!

Question - what if you want to sell hot dogs - or, say, the child of an ignorant set of parents wants to have a lemonade stand - on your own property, right by the sidewalk. Is it permissible to refuse to sell to protected classes? The child doesn't want to sell to the lesbians down the street or maybe the Muslims next door or even their Mexican maid's young daughter. Private property. Discrimination legal?

Probably.

I'm assuming (there I go again) that the anti-discrimination laws still wouldn't apply since you aren't a "real" business (i.e. no license). But then again if someone complained then you could likely get into some hot water for running a business without a license. So, either way you're screwed.

 

[mk2ja]

Land of the free

 

[finity]

Land of the free

I know what you mean but we've all got rules to follow.

I don't think you'll ever find a place that you'd be completely free & if there was I don't think I'd like to live there. I guess if you owned your own deserted island & lived there completely alone... but what fun would that be. As soon as you get more than one person living together you're going to have to start making & living with rules.

Overall I'd rather live here than any place else - even with all the crap we have to put up with at times.

 

[mk2ja]

Overall I'd rather live here than any place else - even with all the crap we have to put up with at times.

I agree. Mostly was just bing ironic in my last post.

 

[littletommy]

I've pretty much read everything in this post now, and even posted my opinion of BWW (they suck), but one thing has me kinda puzzled. I've seen these things pop up before on INGO, and I just can't wrap my mind around patronizing a business that doesn't want someone to carry guns on their property. Being anti gun is but ONE reason why I will never spend a dime at any BWW, and I'm sure others here have made the same decision with BWW, and other businesses. Why do an OC event there? Why put money in their pockets (assuming they will serve you), and in the big picture of things, who cares! Just go somewhere else. The private property thing has been hashed over in this thread already, it didn't take a manager of the anti gun Clarksville store asking me to cover my gun to make me say "I will never visit this crappy restaurant again", and there are MANY restaurants in Clarksville.

There is not going to be some widespread banning of guns in restaurants because BWW set the precedent, JUST DON'T GO THERE ANYMORE! EVER! I am not anti OC, I don't care how somebody carries, it just gets to me when everybody starts screaming "OC event"! If someone can have a discussion with the manager/owner of the business and actually reach an understanding, then that's great, that's better than great, and it has happened, I just don't see the point of spending money somewhere that doesn't want you there.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I've pretty much read everything in this post now, and even posted my opinion of BWW (they suck), but one thing has me kinda puzzled. I've seen these things pop up before on INGO, and I just can't wrap my mind around patronizing a business that doesn't want someone to carry guns on their property. Being anti gun is but ONE reason why I will never spend a dime at any BWW, and I'm sure others here have made the same decision with BWW, and other businesses. Why do an OC event there? Why put money in their pockets (assuming they will serve you), and in the big picture of things, who cares! Just go somewhere else. The private property thing has been hashed over in this thread already, it didn't take a manager of the anti gun Clarksville store asking me to cover my gun to make me say "I will never visit this crappy restaurant again", and there are MANY restaurants in Clarksville.

There is not going to be some widespread banning of guns in restaurants because BWW set the precedent, JUST DON'T GO THERE ANYMORE! EVER! I am not anti OC, I don't care how somebody carries, it just gets to me when everybody starts screaming "OC event"! If someone can have a discussion with the manager/owner of the business and actually reach an understanding, then that's great, that's better than great, and it has happened, I just don't see the point of spending money somewhere that doesn't want you there.

I think I missed somewhere in 18 pages where it was proven that BW3 was anti-gun? Could you cite that for me? Like I said in my prior post, I've received nothing but positive experiences and conversations at my BW3, and I OC there very frequently.

 

[T-rav]

Ok folks I haver a little bit of info that may or may not help.

I used to work for the Mike Jones Group. He is the man that owns all of the stores here it is a franchise. There are NO signs on any of the stores that he owns.

The GM of the Auburn is a pretty good guy I know him personally, however he is from Ohio and I think he assumes Ohio law is the same here as to some of the comments he has made to me about firearms. The GM of the 37 store is a pretty laid back guy, when Im there they know I have a firearm and nothing is ever said to me. It may help that I worked there for side cash for about a year.

Good job on the way you handled the situation, knowing you a little bit Im not surprised one bit. Did you get a look at his name tag if so PM me his name. If its who IM guessing it is he is a bit of a ego-maniac and a power tripper. I went up there one night to help out and he chewed me out for being 5 minutes late, when I was actually leaving my primary store to bail them out. I informed him I was not forced by anyone to be there and was helping them out and I could leave if he didnt really want my help. Thats what makes me think it's the same manager.

Oh and FYI I have a ok foot in the door at the Tilted Kilt and if we wanted to have a weekend OC lunch meet Im sure I could arrange that. It is a franchise as well and they dont play by corporate rules.

 

[littletommy]

I think I missed somewhere in 18 pages where it was proven that BW3 was anti-gun? Could you cite that for me? Like I said in my prior post, I've received nothing but positive experiences and conversations at my BW3, and I OC there very frequently.

Is your BWW in Clarksville? They have a no gun sign, that would imply anti gun to me, that's the only one I've wasted my time going into, and I don't care about the others.