HELP! M1 Carbine or Beretta storm 9mm

[mettle]

I am going to buy one of these soon. Been looking at pros and cons.
This is going to be a 'truck gun'.

m1 carbine:
mags are availabe at a price, some are USGI, some are fake and untrustworthy.
Pricey as well.
Are the Auto_ordnance rifles worth their weight?
USGI m1s are high in price, safe to shoot? I
am not buying a commercial, I do know that much.
Accessories make it worth the time?


Storm: 9mm out to 100yards may do just what the .30 carbine does.
mags are available
ammo is cheaper and consistently available.
Closed bolt operation.
Comes ready to mount optics.
Decent sights; wieldy and shorter.
Wouldn't need much in the way of accessories added.

I know 100 is pushing it for the 9mm. That is understood.

Any thoughts?
Please advise.

 

[shooter521]

mags are availabe at a price, some are USGI, some are fake and untrustworthy.

Same could be said for Beretta mags.

USGI m1s are high in price, safe to shoot?

A USGI M1 Carbine from the CMP will cost you less than a new Storm. And yeah, they're all safe to shoot, though overall condition will vary and cannot be assured unless you drive to CMP North to pick out your gun in person.

Are the Auto_ordnance rifles worth their weight?

am not buying a commercial, I do know that much.

If you're dead-set against buying a commercial gun, then why does it matter if the Auto Ord carbines are good or not? By most accounts they are, although they are a reproduction of the earlier style M1 Carbine, and as such are lacking a couple features I'd want.

Accessories make it worth the time?

What accessories do you envision needing? Sling? Light mount? Optic? All are available for the M1 Carbine, and don't forget about the ever-so-handy GI style buttstock magazine carrier.

Storm:

Closed bolt operation.

Umm, the M1 Carbine is closed-bolt as well. As will be any semi-auto rifle you can readily lay hands on.

Decent sights;

Having fired both types, I consider the M1 Carbine sights (late style with windage/elev. adjustable peep rear) to be far superior to those of the CX4.

wieldy and shorter.

The Storm is shorter, but the M1 Carbine certainly isn't a fencepost. And it's probably as light or lighter than the Storm, as well.

Wouldn't need much in the way of accessories added.

And the Carbine would?

Any thoughts?

The Storm's biggest advantages are the economy and availability of ammo and mags (especially factory-quality mags that hold more than 15 rounds). I find the M1 Carbine to be better handling (lighter, handier, more comfortable), have more useful sights, and exhibit less perceived recoil while shooting a more potent caliber (probably due to being gas-operated vs. blowback). Additionally, the M1 Carbine uses all metal internal parts, while several of the Storm's critical components are plastic - could be a factor in longevity and durability, especially with hard use. Replacement parts for the Carbine are also fairly inexpensive and widely available. With the Storm, you are at Beretta's mercy if something breaks. They have good CS, but it could still take awhile.

My

 

[mike8170]

I think you have all the pros and cons listed. I personally prefer my M1 carbine, and that is what I carry in the truck, but ammunition is not available right now, and the Aguila ammo isn't the greatest since the velocity is too low IMO. Just availability of accessories and ammunition would make me think the the Beretta is the way to go right now.
Another good one to consider is the Ruger PC9 or PC40. I have a PC9 and it is very accurate at 100yds, plus I like the feel of it since the design is based on the M1 carbine. Ruger discontinued them in 2007, but you may be able to find one used.

 

[grizzlydave]

i would also think that the Beretta would be a better choices just because of the ammo but thats me you can find 9mm anywhere at really good prices.

 

[mettle]

Umm, the M1 Carbine is closed-bolt as well. As will be any semi-auto rifle you can readily lay hands on.

Umm(), What I was meaning is that the ACTION is closed verses the action on the Beretta. Umm, thanks for your umm, imput...

Mike, how available are the PCs from Ruger? I am thinking the 9mm rifle is the way to go. Ammo availability is a sure thing at the moment.

 

[Chefcook]

Mine is the PX4 Storm....

 

[turnandshoot4]

If you wanted a range gun that would go up in value in the next couple of years I say go for the carbine. If you didn't want to ever sell it, the carbine.

But since you want a truck gun I say the CX4. I have shot a few and they shoot well but the trigger isn't the best. A cheap red dot will go far on one of those. My buddy put a tru glo on his and it is great to shoot. For a gun that you just want to throw in your truck and not worry about scratching, the Beretta is the way to go.

 

[shooter521]

What I was meaning is that the ACTION is closed verses the action on the Beretta.

The term "closed bolt" has a very specific definition in the gun world. Plus I'm an editor by trade, so I find the meaning of words and their correct usage to be very important. Apologies if my comment seemed a bit flippant.

All that aside, I don't think either gun offers a significant advantage in terms of action design. The Storm's ejection port is still somewhat exposed to the elements (no dust cover), and the M1 Carbine is designed with loose enough tolerances that dirt/grime/mud/etc should be a non-issue; it certainly didn't seem to be with the M1 Garand that preceded it, or the Mini-14 that followed.

I am thinking the 9mm rifle is the way to go. Ammo availability is a sure thing at the moment.

I suggest looking at the Kel-Tec SUB-2000 in 9mm, as well. It is lighter, handier and significantly less expensive than the Storm, and it uses plentiful and cheap Glock mags (including the factory 33-rounders). Its biggest downsides are its less robust construction, and its inability to easily accept an optic.

 

[Colt556]

Carbine ammo is more expensive, harder to find and has less of a selection than the 9mm. I looked at a couple of the new M1 Carbines at Bradis and they look awful nice to me. I shoot a couple of Carbines but know very little about the Beretta. Not much help I know....

 

[Wabatuckian]

IMO, there is not really a place for a pistol caliber carbine that is not capable of full auto.

You may get a couple hundred fps velocity increase at best, still well below the M1 carbine.

About the only thing that the 9mm carbine will do that a handgun cannot, is have greater accuracy due to the buttstock and the greater sight radius.

The .30 Carbine round got a bad rep as a manstopper in Korea, where it was used in FMJ configuration, in a role that it was not intended for. The M1 Carbine came about to replace the sidearm (1911 or 1917) of those not normally equipped with battle rifles.

At this they were superb. They were personal defensive weapons, while the standard infantry had offensive weapons.

When they were used as battle rifles in Korea, they fell short of the mark. Even the M2, the full auto configuration, wasn't the greatest front line rifle.

Now, the good news: Corbon makes an awesome .30 Carbine round that has an effective range of about 200 meters, give or take, and is good to go on man sized targets out to that distance. One might even be able to get 300 meters if he pushed it.

The 9mm carbine, OTOH, is good to maybe 100 meters before its power starts falling off drastically, depending on bullet weight and configuration.

I personally would not choose a defensive rifle, that I would not take into a war zone. For me, that means that if it's a pistol caliber rifle, it must be capable of full auto fire. If it is semi-automatic, I would choose an intermediate cartridge at the very least.

When it comes to deciding what you need, define the role the weapon needs to fill. A "truck gun" can be called upon for a lot of things. What do you plan to do with it? Do you think it'll ever be called on to defeat body armor or intermediate barriers?

I personally went through a few guns before I figured out that an SKS, retaining the bayonet and having a rear peep added, is about perfect for what I need when loaded with soft point ammo. The rear peep is a 0-2 and 3 selective style. I drilled out the 0-2 peep for faster target acquisition close in.

However, it's still a bit long, and I've been looking very seriously at the M1 Carbines.

I tried the 9mm carbine thing, and it just didn't quite cut it.

I guess I'm envisioning body hits at 200 meters, while you may be thinking of needing to shoot no more than 50.

If in doubt, and especially if you reload, I'd go with the M1 Carbine for the power and lighter weight.

If plinking and inexpensive ammo are primary considerations, I'd go with the 9mm carbine.

If this long diatribe hasn't helped ya' out, please further define your needs and I'm sure the fine folks here will further help you out.

Josh <><

 

[Colt556]

Nice history lesson Josh. Another reason the Carbine was not liked in Korea was the fact that the .30 Ball round didn't penetrate the padded Korean/Chinese clothing very well. One of my favorite WWII movie scenes is in The Battle of The Bulge when the commander comes in and starts kicking all of the cooks and clerks out the door and they are all carrying their M1 Carbines! They were great for their intended purpose but when asked to do more they got the bad rep. I love to shoot mine, as well as the .30 Carbine Blackhawk I have!

 

[Zoub]

Truck gun KelTec folder with Glock 33rd mags. Cheap, easy for anyone to shoot, will use same mags as your G19/G17. Cheap if stolen.

I use to have an Original M1A1 (paratrooper) I sold it for nice money. The .30 carbine with an aftermarket folder would be nice as well.

Storm is a bit bulky compared to the other two. Good fun gun/range gun.

 

[shooter521]

Noted ballistician Dr. Gary Roberts has some interesting things to say about the M1 Carbine in modern applications. Courtesy of another forum:
__________________________

I think of M1 carbines as 100 yard PDW's; they are light, handy, and fun to shoot--sort of like an MP5. In general, the AR15 is a better choice for a patrol rifle or self-defense, as it is more accurate, more ergonomic, still in current production, and there are more accessories available, however, if you live in an overly restrictive state, modified M1 Carbines with good ammo make useful PC alternatives to M4's and AK's.

The .30 caliber M1 Carbine 110 gr FMJ military bullets have a typical velocity of 1970 f/s. As these are non-deforming, non-fragmenting projectiles, they produces minimal tissue damage, somewhat similar to the U. S. 9 mm NATO M882 124 gr FMJ. While M1 carbines have a poor reputation when using GI ball ammo, good expanding bullets offer a stunning leap in incapacitation potential and should cause us to rethink the M1 carbine as a self defense rifle and even as a LE patrol rifle for agencies that won’t allow AR15’s for whatever asinine reasons. The M1 Carbine is a very viable choice as a personal defense weapon for use out to 100 yards or so; in many ways, the M1 Carbine was the M4 of it's era (1940's to early 1960's) and can still be effective today when fed the right ammunition.

With expanding 110 gr projectiles, the .30 caliber M1 Carbine creates a temporary cavity stretch that is slightly larger than that produced by heavy expanding .357 Magnum hunting loads and may be able to produce permanent splitting, tearing, and rupture injuries in tissues susceptible to stretch insults, such as the liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs, such as the bladder. The best ammunition choice for the M1 Carbine is the Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR)--at an average velocity of 1864 f/s, it expands to around .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor. This is comparable intermediate barrier performance to many good .223 loads. The Winchester 110 gr JSP also works reasonably well, but has a bit smaller permanent wound channel compared to the Remington load. In addition, the new Corbon load using the Barnes DPX bullet appears to be promising. Conversely, the Federal 110 gr JSP carbine bullet acts just like ball without any expansion. Hornady 90 gr JHP-XTP bullets offered insufficient penetration when fired from the carbine. When practicing, just use inexpensive non-corrosive FMJ, either from CMP or some other reasonably priced source.

To maximize the reliability of the M1 carbine, only use USGI weapons, as most commercial M1 Carbine clones have not proven as reliable as GI. It is a good idea to use an M2 mag catch, run a flip safety instead of the push button, and have a second head-spaced bolt ready for use, as this is a weak area--in fact, I unexpectedly had a low round count bolt break on one of my M1 carbines while at the range the other day. Sights are typical military iron variety, although one can mount an optical sight with some difficulty. Accuracy is typically in the 3-4 MOA range, not great, but at least as good as the AK's. Typical reliability is around one easily cleared feeding failure per 500 or so rounds--no big deal. The M1 carbine stock has nearly perfect LOP as is, even with body armor on--I feel no need to try and add a collapsible stock to these weapons.

In general, avoid commercial magazines; GI 15 round mags typically are the most reliable, although some GI 30 rounders work ok...Wolff makes new mag springs that can help. The Black Hawk 2oz Duty Mace pouch (52DMP2BK) makes a very nice belt mag pouch for a M1 carbine 15 round magazine. 15 rd M1 carbine mags fit adequately into Paraclete triple flash bang pouches (BPP0707); the Paraclete flash light pouch (FLH0077) works OK to hold a single 30 round mag.

A simple way to attach accessories to get a small section of Pic Rail--we’ve used the long PRI ones installed on Mk12 Mod 0 SPR’s and then cut the rails to desired size with a hack saw (you can get 4 pieces out of the long PRI rail), smooth and polish the cuts with a file, Dremel Tool, and sand paper, then drill some holes in the rail piece and counter sink, spray the rail with flat black paint and let dry. Next drill some holes completely through your standard GI stock, use T-nuts and stainless steel bolts purchased at your local hardware store to fix the prepared Pic rail section to the stock. Attach your accessory of your choice, be it a stubby VFG like the LaRue FUG or a light like the the SF X300 or SF G2.
The following modifications have improved the utility of M1 carbines for real world use:

-- Ultimak fore-ends
-- Aimpoint M3’s in Leup 30 mm med matte QRW rings or even better, Aimpoint T1’s in low LaRue mounts.
-- SF 6v G2's in VTAC mounts on the Ultimak Rail
-- LaRue stubby FUG VFG's
-- Blue Force Gear VCAS slings
-- London Bridge M1 carbine stock pouches (see another pouch source here: CMP Discussion Forum - Garand stock pouches and other things)

 

[Colt556]

Nice read.

 

[mettle]

I see what you are saying Josh. But, really, the Kel tec SU16 comes to mind if I want an intermediate cartridge. I am definitely going to have to do some study and handling for sure. Glock34 on this site has offered to meet and let me shoot his. I am going to have to take him up on the offer!

 

[Colt556]

I have a couple Carbines we could shoot. I'm in Btown once or twice a week.

 

[mettle]

That'd be awesome. Perhaps a scheduled trip to Morgan Co. range soon!

 

[CandRFan]

No surprise at what my choice would be.

 

[TheGhostRider]

I have a CX4. I've owned it for years.... purchased when they first came out.
I've owned M1 carbines as well... My favorite was my Rockola.
However... were I looking for a "truck gun" I'd go for the Beretta.
The reason is simple; Modern technology with excellent parts availability and a personally adaptable platform. 9mm ammunition has experienced the greatest technological advancements in the last 15 years of all ammunition. It is not the "feeble" ammo of yesterday. If you buy quality ammo, you will not be under powered.
+P hollow points come to mind.
Remington Golden Saber, Hydra shoks are another option....
Load up that CX4 with some good ammo and some Mec Gar 20 round mags with an Aimpoint and you will be very happy.
If an Aimpoint is a stretch then look at the Burris option... Good sight lower cost.