Holding a Carry Event? Have a "Legal Observer" Attend

[mk2ja]

so all of a sudden, the first amendment (press) only applies if you're wearing some ugly ass hat?

No, not at all.

I've organized and hosted about a dozen Open Carry "cigar nights" in 2 different cities, each has been attended by 20 to 40 people. Never had an issue with LEO confrontations, civilian complaints or anything else.

Why have an observer when none is needed?

The OC events I've attended haven't had any problems either. But, the Cigar Nights aren't really in places that would lead to confrontation with LEOs anyway.

—especially if it includes the possibility of interaction with law enforcement who do not want you to be doing what you are doing—

If you were at a demonstration in a very gun-unfriendly city—Bloomington, perhaps?—you may find more resistance from authorities. And while most gun owners and LEOs at such an event would likely be intentionally extra calm and mature, all it takes is one hot-head smart aleck to escalate it.



I'm starting to think that my thread title may have been poorly worded, and it's really giving people the wrong impression about the idea in the blog I read. It is just a suggestion to be prepared if an event might go awry! Somebody off to the side who "isn't involved" documenting could come in handy if there are arrests (or "detainments" as they might be called) or charges or damage or who knows what.

The suggestion has NOTHING to do with saying that the right to record cops is only reserved for somebody in an ugly hat.

 

[Westside]

so all of a sudden, the first amendment (press) only applies if you're wearing some ugly ass hat?

Don't forget about his shirt too!!!

 

[Roadie]

To all the people that are asking "Why is this needed" "What about the 1st" etc...

I would reiterate what the OP said,

We have seen many reports of law enforcement around the country giving citizens with cameras or tape recorders a hard time.

Might I suggest looking up some of the instances where citizens legally filming LEO activities have been harassed, arrested, detained, charged, cameras/phones smashed etc?

At the very least I think it is a good idea in principle, with or without the debated shirt and hat, to have an observer apart from the crowd, filming as discretely as possible.

 

[melensdad]

The OC events I've attended haven't had any problems either. But, the Cigar Nights aren't really in places that would lead to confrontation with LEOs anyway.

The most common event is held in a busy strip mall in Schererville. Seems like a pretty likely place for LEO.

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

I believe this is an outstanding idea. I am honestly surprised at the resistance shown here given all of the videos of LE abuse of civilians here on INGO.

Do controversial marches have to have legal observers? Obviously not.
However, a legal observer has no down side.

When was the last time a journalist testified in court? I am certain it has happened but most people know it is rare if at all.

Having someone basically trained in understanding civil liberties and rights make an observation would be a much more credible witness in a court of law than some randomly picked John Q Public.

It is basically a way of politely warning LE to do their job within the limits of the law without being snotty about it.

The idea that many marches in the past have been uneventful, therefore we don't need a legal observer is intriguing. The same logic would apply to "since you have never been robbed you don't need to carry a gun" right??? "Since you've never had your home burn down you don't need insurance", right?

I am certain that location would affect how LEO's viewed the march, along with the size of the march itself. Ten or twenty law abiding citizens marching, armed, in downtown Decatur Indiana would probably not be received with too much hostility. However 2,000 armed citizens in downtown Indianapolis would produce a likelihood of a negative response from the local PD.

To me it is like threatening someone without really threatening them. I know this is an analogy but I've told people all the time, "If you really want to change something at work don't just complain to your manager, file the complaint in writing!" When a complaint is in writing everyone knows without being told that this could come up later as evidence in court.

To me having someone there marked in a uniform of sorts whose sole purpose is to observe, and later testify in court as to what they observed, puts everyone on notice to obey the law, be decent, and play nice.

And there is NO downside to that, only upside.

Regards,

Doug

 

[ThrottleJockey]

My concern is that while there is no statute prohibiting public photo taking/video recording, is there one preventing you from taking video/photos of LEO? This is a BIG problem in many states. Another concern is that this sounds an awful lot like a stunt the lefties/unions would pull when they stage huge phony protests and bait the opposition into defending themselves...then comes the editing room....

 

[JoshuaW]

My concern is that while there is no statute prohibiting public photo taking/video recording, is there one preventing you from taking video/photos of LEO? This is a BIG problem in many states. Another concern is that this sounds an awful lot like a stunt the lefties/unions would pull when they stage huge phony protests and bait the opposition into defending themselves...then comes the editing room....

In Indiana, no. In most (if not all?) states, no. The laws that they have been using to screw with people have been wiretap laws. No two party consent, no legal recording. In Indiana you dont need two party consent, so you can record. NEVER interfere with a LEO, or else you do run the risk of getting arrested ANYWHERE. You may never be prosecuted, but you will run a serious risk of getting major grief.

Not to be the fly in the ointment but are the police magically not going to whip out the baton and kneecap you if you are wearing a shirt and everyone else around you is raging or marching? I doubt this would be the case. More likely the police would do nothing if they were already doing nothing about it, or bust you upside the head if that's what they were already doing. I doubt that a t shirt has anything to do with anything. Besides, if you want to live in a Free Republic then you must behave like it is a Free Republic. Doing anything else is giving in to Tyranny.

Actually yes. I do some amateur photography and I have contributed to several different media sources (anonymously, so I dont become a target in events I participate in; it is unfortunately a very real problem). Even something like a hat for a local news station will greatly reduce the likelihood of you getting your butt beat down by the local riot police. Think back to the Democrat and Republican National Committee events a few years ago. Bloggers and "alternative" media sources were getting beat down left and right. A couple mainstream media crews had issues, but not nearly the level that others had.

There is a general understanding that "observers" will do just that, and that under no circumstances is abusing an observer ever acceptable. By labeling yourself as an observer, whether through a goofy shirt and hat or a high dollar camera, you are making it very clear that they are being watched, and if things turn sour, there will be repercussions and there will be evidence. In areas where cameras are confiscated and people are arrested for recording it is a little more obvious that you are recording and can help with that whole wiretap BS that they try to use, and people that are typically labeling themselves as an observer will make a stink if an officer tries to smash a $2000 camera or confiscate an SD card. Oh, and if you are in an area where recording may not go so well, be prepared to get your memory card out of your camera in a hurry, but dont swallow it. If you swallow it you probably will never get it back, I learned that the hard way.

 

[mk2ja]

Oh, and if you are in an area where recording may not go so well, be prepared to get your memory card out of your camera in a hurry, but dont swallow it. If you swallow it you probably will never get it back, I learned that the hard way.

Great post JoshuaW.

But I'm *really* curious about the underlined portion above. Although, I'm not sure if I really wanna know…