homeowners association RIDICULOUS

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Hotdoger

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 9, 2008
    4,903
    48
    Boone County, In.
    Board of Directors, Fieldstone HOA PO Box 71 Greenfield, IN 46140 Re: Mr. & Mrs. Robert Willits 1621 Stonewall Drive Greenfield, IN 46140 Dear Board, By this letter, I request that you rescind and make amends for the actions taken in your letter to Mr. & Mrs. Robert Willits (“the Willits”) dated September 9, 2014 and reiterated in your letter to the Willits dated October 18, 2014. You may do so by Saturday, November 1, 2014. After that date, I will have no choice but to file suit to enjoin the board from enforcing the actions taken in its letters dated September 9 and October 18.1 If the suit is successful, state statute requires me to pursue further legal proceedings to collect costs from the board.2 This letter describes the prosecutor’s jurisdiction, the way in which the board has exceeded its authority, and the actions the board needs to take to rescind and make amends.
    1 Indiana Code 34‐17‐2‐1(a)(1)(A). 2 Indiana Code 34‐17‐3‐6(c).
    HANCOCK COUNTY PROSECUTING ATTORNEY 27 AMERICAN LEGION PLACE GREENFIELD, INDIANA 46140 MAIN TELEPHONE: (317) 477-1139 CHILD SUPPORT TELEPHONE: (317) 477-1713 FACSIMILE: (317) 477-1180
    MICHAEL GRIFFIN PROSECUTING ATTORNEY
    TAMI NAPIER CHIEF DEPUTY PROSECUTING ATTORNEY
    NATALIE BENAVENTE CHILD SUPPORT ADMINISTRATOR
    SHELLI POPPINO OFFICE MANAGER


    Prosecutor’s Jurisdiction The prosecuting attorney is responsible to file suit against a corporation that “exceeds or abuses the authority conferred upon the corporation by law.”3 According to records of the Indiana Secretary of State, Fieldstone Homeowners’ Association, Inc. is a domestic corporation in good standing created on February 3, 1997. Association’s Authority According to the board’s letter dated October 18, the board takes the position that it has authority under the “time, place, or manner” provision of the Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005 (the “Flag Act”).4 In relying on “time, place, or manner,” the board interprets its authority much too broadly. The “time, place, or manner” provision does not empower the association. Quite the opposite, the Flag Act prevents homeowners associations from enforcing most kinds of regulations regarding display of the American flag.5 But if the Association has a “substantial interest” invoked by a display of the American flag, then the association may use its state law authority to regulate the display with respect to “time, place, or manner.”6 The Community Associations Institute, in particular, calls attention to the requirement of a “substantial interest” on its web site.7 The association apparently assumes that it has a legally‐sufficient “substantial interest.” However, the association has asserted its interests to be type of community and future outdoor maintenance. Every homeowners association has those interests. If those general interests were enough, the law would not require a “substantial interest,” it would simply say that homeowners associations always have the right to regulate “time, place, or manner.” But the
    3 Indiana Code 34‐17‐1‐1(6) and 34‐17‐2‐1. 4 Public Law 109‐243 (2006). 5 Section 3 of the Flag Act. 6 Section 4 of the Flag Act. 7 http://www.caionline.org/govt/news/P...ththeFreedomto DisplaytheAmericanFlagActof2005.aspx (last visited on October 23, 2014).


    law does not say that. The law requires a “substantial interest,” something more than the usual interests of homeowners associations. The example offered by the Community Associations Institute is large floodlights that would disturb the sleep of residents.8 However, nothing like that is at stake here. After visiting the Willits’ property and examining their display, we find that:  the flags are in good condition and are of a size and material commonly found in Hancock County and throughout Indiana, and  the type of flagpole, including its height, color, finish, finial, and surrounding decorations, are all within the bounds of flag displays commonly found in Hancock County and throughout Indiana. We do not find any aspect of the Willits’ display that invokes a legally‐sufficient “substantial interest” of the association. Our visit also revealed that a much taller flagpole and flag are posted on association property near the entrance to the Fieldstone neighborhood. With these already displayed in the Fieldstone neighborhood, the association cannot deny that these are acceptable. Any legal dispute about the Willits’ display would invoke the association’s display as a powerful example supporting the Willits. In summary, the association does not have a legally‐sufficient “substantial interest” invoked by the Willits’ display. Under the Flag Act, without a “substantial interest,” the association cannot regulate the Willits’ flagpole and American flag. Potential Responses I expect the board’s review will include consideration of counterpoints to the position taken in this letter. In the interests of time and resolving this matter, I will note and address the more expected counterpoints.
    8 Id.


    One counterpoint may be that the Willits failed to follow procedures. This is easily overcome. Under the Flag Act, exercising the right to display the American flag does not require following any procedure unless the association has a legally‐sufficient “substantial interest.” As already concluded, the association does not have a legally‐sufficient “substantial interest” with respect to the Willits’ flag display. Without a “substantial interest” at stake, the Flag Act allows the Willits to exercise their right without following any procedure at all. Another counterpoint may be that the association has to assert its authority now, otherwise, the association will not be able to enforce its covenants and restrictions in the future. But that attempts to pit the full range of future possibilities against the actual display today by the Willits. This dispute is not about possibilities. The Flag Act does not permit future possibilities to be an objection. This dispute concerns the actual flag display, now, by the Willits. In the future, if the Willits display a tattered flag, double the height of their flagpole, paint the flagpole bright pink, or do anything else that would render the display disrespectful,9 the association could take enforcement action consistent with the “manner” provision of the Flag Act. But that is not today’s situation. Today’s situation is a well‐maintained and respectful display of the American flag consistent with the Flag Act and Code. Another counterpoint may be that the prosecuting attorney enforces state law, not federal law. However, this is an enforcement of state law. The association has no authority apart from state law. The association’s authority to enforce covenants and restrictions is derived from state law. The association is attempting to use its authority under state law. The state authority of homeowners associations has been reduced by a federal law, the Flag Act. Regardless, the association continues to attempt using its state law authority as though it had not been reduced. State law makes me responsible to file suit against a corporation when it “exceeds or abuses the authority conferred upon the corporation by law.”10 Note that the reference to “law” in that provision is not limited. My position is that the association does not have the state law authority that it has asserted, and that the association has exceeded its state law authority.
    9 See The Flag Code, 4 U.S.C. §§ 1‐10. 10 Indiana Code 34‐17‐1‐1(6) and 34‐17‐2‐1.


    Another counterpoint may be that the association’s free‐standing flagpole is intended to be the only one in the neighborhood. However, display is an individual right under the Flag Act, not limited to a group like the association. If display by free‐standing flagpole is already acceptable at one location in the neighborhood, logic does not dictate that it is unacceptable elsewhere in the neighborhood. What about restrictions on “manner” or “place” of display? As already addressed, those apply only if the association has a legally‐sufficient “substantial interest.” What “substantial interest” could the association have in prohibiting the Willits’ free‐standing flagpole? If the answer is aesthetics or exclusive use by the association, those are not legally‐sufficient “substantial interests.” Why not? This is exactly why the Flag Act became law. After the Flag Act, the usual, aesthetic‐based interests of a homeowners association are simply not enough when it comes to display of the American flag. That’s what the Flag Act means, and that’s why the “substantial interest” standard was imposed. Another counterpoint may be that only the American flag is covered by the Flag Act while the flagpole is not covered by the Flag Act. However, an interpretation like that would be totally inconsistent with the Flag Act. To display the flag, some means of display is necessary. There is no possible way for a flag to be displayed without it being attached to something. Flagpoles, whether free‐ standing or attached to the façade of a home, are the customary way of displaying a flag outdoors. Aesthetic preference is not a legally‐sufficient “substantial interest” of the association with respect to American flag display, and I know of no other reason for an association to distinguish between flagpoles attached to the façade of a home and free‐standing flagpoles. Another counterpoint may be that the Willits are also flying a POW/MIA flag. The POW/MIA flag is not protected by the Flag Act. In your letter dated October 18, 2014, you take exception, to what you imagine to be an implication of Mr. Cone’s letter, that you are not decent‐minded people. As I read Mr. Cone’s letter, I did not find that as an implication. I found Mr. Cone’s letter to be a positive, reasonable and succinct appeal to your better sentiments. Obviously, that was not successful. I suggest that you permit the Willits to fly their POW/MIA flag as a gesture of goodwill. However, the decision about the POW/MIA flag, and the implications that will inevitably flow from it, are yours to choose. We are free to act legally, but we are not free from what people will
     

    Hop

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    16   0   0
    Jan 21, 2008
    5,089
    83
    Indy
    So the HOA was too slow to act and should have halted the installation of the pole before the owner could display the flag. :dunno:
     

    KellyinAvon

    Blue-ID Mafia Consigliere
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Dec 22, 2012
    25,109
    150
    Avon

    Thanks for the link Doc and thanks to Hotdogger for the Prosecutor's letter.
    I read the covenants, ours doesn't suck compared to this one (no swing-sets?? WTF-OVER??!!)
    I'm a board member (don't hate). I saw NOTHING about flags or flagpoles and would disagree that a stationary flagpole is a structure. They board/architectural review committee is operating outside the scope of the document and lacks the authority to stop him. If it did say you couldn't have stationary flagpoles I'd take the lead on amending the document.

    On an unrelated topic, I've been meaning to get a Jolly Roger (Skull and Crossbones) flag. Old Glory always flies in the position of honor, but I need to mix it up with the Air Force Flag and the Gadsden Flag.
     

    HoughMade

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 24, 2012
    35,804
    149
    Valparaiso
    All I'll say is this- do what you want. If you feel like giving up some freedom is a good tradeoff to limit your neighbor's freedom and support your own property value, have at it- your choice. It's your freedom to trade away.

    Personally, I would not live somewhere where someone else had the power to tell me what the outside of my house should look like. That's me. Maybe your place will end up appreciating more than mine. Good for you. We make our judgments and we live with them.
     

    JettaKnight

    Я з Україною
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Oct 13, 2010
    26,556
    113
    Fort Wayne
    I'm a sheeple because I don't want my home devalued because my neighbors want to park their 40' RV in the driveway next to the other car on blocks and the nice upholstered sofa on the front porch?

    I see you're new to INGO. :):

    I almost wish our neighborhood had a flag limitation. Every Saturday our streets are littered with Ohio State flags.
    :puke:


    As for the situation, did they talk to the assoc. first? Words between friends go a long way...

    Their pole looks well manicured as does the surroundings, so my guess is the neighbors hate the overall situation.
     

    Caleb

    Making whiskey, one batch at a time!
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Aug 11, 2008
    10,155
    63
    Columbus, IN
    All I'll say is this- do what you want. If you feel like giving up some freedom is a good tradeoff to limit your neighbor's freedom and support your own property value, have at it- your choice. It's your freedom to trade away.

    Personally, I would not live somewhere where someone else had the power to tell me what the outside of my house should look like. That's me. Maybe your place will end up appreciating more than mine. Good for you. We make our judgments and we live with them.

    I agree...can you imagine signing the HOA because you agreed with it now, only five years from now the majority decides that they need to make some rule or rules you don't agree with?

    Whose pocket does the HOA fees fills? HOA allows for corruption....
     

    KLB

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Sep 12, 2011
    23,274
    77
    Porter County
    All I'll say is this- do what you want. If you feel like giving up some freedom is a good tradeoff to limit your neighbor's freedom and support your own property value, have at it- your choice. It's your freedom to trade away.

    Personally, I would not live somewhere where someone else had the power to tell me what the outside of my house should look like. That's me. Maybe your place will end up appreciating more than mine. Good for you. We make our judgments and we live with them.
    I feel the same as you do. The only fear we have about our property is that someday the farm field next door will be turned into a subdivision.
     

    crispy

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Nov 29, 2010
    1,654
    38
    Noblesville
    I agree...can you imagine signing the HOA because you agreed with it now, only five years from now the majority decides that they need to make some rule or rules you don't agree with?

    Whose pocket does the HOA fees fills? HOA allows for corruption....

    So much misinformation...

    The HOA is made up of people like me and my neighbors. The board is elected and re-elected after fairly short terms. Usually we're begging people to run as no one wants to put up with the headache.

    Where does the money go? In the HOA bank account. Who sees the balance sheet? EVERYBODY. Every year. Who can request an audit? Anyone. Who shows up at the meetings? About 10% or less.

    Most HOAs aren't out to get you. I was President of our HOA for a couple years. I was actually on the lenient side. Most of the complaints directed to me were homeowners that didn't want other homeowners jacking up their house/yard. I've seen it all. Window air conditioners. Covered boats. Outdoor dog kennels. Garbage cans that never get brought in. It all adds up and it all affect property values.
     

    Mr Evilwrench

    Quantum Mechanic
    Emeritus
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 18, 2011
    11,560
    63
    Carmel
    Heh, we had a farm field kitty corner to my yard that was turned into a subdivision, and the mus musculus infestation went absolutely insane. I think I caught 24 of the things in the garage that year, and a few in the basement before I got it sealed well enough to keep them out. Be ready for that if it's developed.
     

    KLB

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Sep 12, 2011
    23,274
    77
    Porter County
    No issue. I have some unknown number of barn cats already. Between the cats, yotes and hawks the population of rodents is kept fairly well in check.
     

    Mr Evilwrench

    Quantum Mechanic
    Emeritus
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 18, 2011
    11,560
    63
    Carmel
    I had a colony of feral cats for a while until they knocked the squirrel population down. Hadn't seen one for about a year until yesterday, when there was a gorgeous black cat on the front deck that ran off. Might've been someone's pet, though, it looked pretty well fed.
     
    Top Bottom