How can this be legal and if so, why don't more have it?

[snafu21]

So I'm browsing the interwebs and looking at Lower kits and I see this

full auto M16 lower parts kit with auto sear : AR15 Parts at GunBroker.com

Would this not violate the 86 ban on full auto or am I missing something? If it would be legal to buy and install, why do more not have full auto AR's?

I'm sadly ignorant on the subject.

 

[Bluejeeper]

So I'm browsing the interwebs and looking at Lower kits and I see this

full auto M16 lower parts kit with auto sear : AR15 Parts at GunBroker.com

Would this not violate the 86 ban on full auto or am I missing something? If it would be legal to buy and install, why do more not have full auto AR's?

I'm sadly ignorant on the subject.

It is not legal to install(unless you have a registered lower) as that would be building a machine gun. Supposedly you can't even have one in the same house as an AR, otherwise you can get hit with "intent to construct".

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Folks who know the details much better than I will doubtlessly be along soon, but the simplest explanation is it isn't illegal to have parts. It is illegal to install them, assuming the gun isn't already legally fully automatic.

 

[snafu21]

That's crazy, I've not looked, but never imagined I'd see them sold so cheap. It didn't make sense to me and I knew there was a catch.

 

[Farmritch]

you can mill the bolt and be ok with it

 

[VUPDblue]

You would have to mill out the "shelf" at the rear of the firecontrol group area of the lower receiver and drill an additional set of holes to accomodate the autosear pin in order to install a functioning fully automatic parts kit. ATFE has ruled that drilling that third set of holes is "creating" a machinegun. Don't do that.

 

[remauto1187]

It is not legal to install(unless you have a registered lower) as that would be building a machine gun. Supposedly you can't even have one in the same house as an AR, otherwise you can get hit with "intent to construct".

Heck, all the AK47 and AK74 parts kit come shipped with their original full auto FCG parts. Pretty useless in a semi auto receiver though. If the in the same house was law there would be a WHOLE LOT of people going to the slammer! I have (4) AK47 parts kits and (1) AK74 Parts kit here in my house alone.

 

[redpitbull44]

The way i was told by people I consider experts; the third pin hole is the key for "them" to have grounds to pursue "intent". You could have 99 ARs with FA carriers and faux 3 position lowers and a crate with 99 FA LPKs and you would be legal. Drill just ONE hole in ONE lower that is anywhere NEAR the correct location, BOOM! INTENT!

FPMITAP time. Unless you have the appropriate licensure.

 

[rvb]

NFA handbook says it's illegal to posses certain M16 parts if you also have an AR15.

(https://www.atf.gov/content/firearm...tions-firearms-national-firearms-act-handbook)

section 2.1.6, pg14

The definition of machinegun also includes a combination of parts from which a machinegun can beassembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. An example of a firearmmeeting this section of the definition is a semiautomatic AR15 rifle possessed with an M16 bolt carrier,hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector. If the semiautomatic AR15 is assembled with the describedM16 parts and the rifle is capable of fully automatic fire, the weapon possessed in conjunction with the​

M16 parts, whether assembled or not, is a machinegun as defined

if you have the M16 parts, but no AR15, then there is no problem.
If you have a registered MG to use them in, then there is no problem.

If you have both an AR15 and an M16 carrier, hammer, trigger, disco, and selector (note autosear isn't in that list), THEN you have a problem (whether assembled or not).

I'm not a lawyer, etc...

-rvb

 

[rvb]

some previuos discussion:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class-iii-nfa/323709-considered-intent.html

-rvb

 

[cook5oh]

Something interesting I learned too, is that you can't own a legally registered m16 (receiver) and an ar15 in the same household. Since you would have the parts to create an unregistered full auto. I have a relative that owns a Colt M16 and he got hit with that. Had to sell his really nice pre-ban colt AR.

 

[VUPDblue]

Something interesting I learned too, is that you can't own a legally registered m16 (receiver) and an ar15 in the same household. Since you would have the parts to create an unregistered full auto. I have a relative that owns a Colt M16 and he got hit with that. Had to sell his really nice pre-ban colt AR.

I call shenanigans on that. I have personally done just that for years and know many, many others who have both without issue.

 

[rvb]

Something interesting I learned too, is that you can't own a legally registered m16 (receiver) and an ar15 in the same household. Since you would have the parts to create an unregistered full auto. I have a relative that owns a Colt M16 and he got hit with that. Had to sell his really nice pre-ban colt AR.

"hit with that?" WTH does that mean? Sounds fishy, like there's more to the story... LOTS of guys have both. ATF considered it illegal, but no charges pressed or evidence confiscated they just, what, asked him nice to sell a gun? By that rationale you couldn't have an SBR and a regular AR, either. was this just something he read or was told?

sorry, but I have to raise the BS flag...

-rvb

 

[shootersix]

Something interesting I learned too, is that you can't own a legally registered m16 (receiver) and an ar15 in the same household. Since you would have the parts to create an unregistered full auto. I have a relative that owns a Colt M16 and he got hit with that. Had to sell his really nice pre-ban colt AR.

thats wrong!, i know a person with a full auto m-16 and more ar15's than you can shake a stick at, he's well versed in the class 3 game, a lawyer, deputy prosecutor, is the lawyer for at least 1 class 3 dealer, and HUGE in the nra!(i mean HUGE), he knows his class 3 stuff, and if what you posted was true, he would not have a semi auto ar within a mile of his house!, sounds like someone wanted your uncles preban colt!

and like most have said, to make the semi auto to a full auto, you'd have to do milling, and drilling on the semi auto to get the sear to fit, thats why the goverment allows ar15's to be sold to the public, they are not easily converted to full auto.

just remember, full auto parts in the upper are ok!(ie bcg), but are a no no in the lower!(ie not even 1 part) or thats "intent"

 

[cook5oh]

Call it what you wan't. I'm just telling you the facts of the story from what I was told. This was around 2003 and I remember seeing that Colt ar15 for sale at "havegunswillsell" here in monroe county for 1000 bucks, and I remember asking him why he was selling it.


Feel free to call it shenanigans or bs or whatever. That won't change the fact that it did happen.

 

[VUPDblue]

Call it what you wan't. I'm just telling you the facts of the story from what I was told. This was around 2003 and I remember seeing that Colt ar15 for sale at "havegunswillsell" here in monroe county for 1000 bucks, and I remember asking him why he was selling it.


Feel free to call it shenanigans or bs or whatever. That won't change the fact that it did happen.

This is likely the crux of the issue

 

[cook5oh]

This is likely the crux of the issue

Feel free to elaborate on that.

 

[HoughMade]

The way i was told by people I consider experts; the third pin hole is the key for "them" to have grounds to pursue "intent". You could have 99 ARs with FA carriers and faux 3 position lowers and a crate with 99 FA LPKs and you would be legal. Drill just ONE hole in ONE lower that is anywhere NEAR the correct location, BOOM! INTENT!

FPMITAP time. Unless you have the appropriate licensure.

There is a difference between what the ATF considers in deciding whether to pursue charges and what could result in a conviction. The ATF may have a policy (may have) where they do not pursue charges unless a hole is drilled (taking that representation on face value). That does not mean that that is the legal standard that a court would have to apply. How is intent proven? A number of ways- could be possession of all the necessary parts and tools plus talking about specific plans to do it. Who knows?

Aggravate the wrong people and their "guidelines" may not matter much. Ultimately a jury could decide whether there was intent and if it makes it that far, there is no bright-line to bind them.

 

[wsenefeld]

Something interesting I learned too, is that you can't own a legally registered m16 (receiver) and an ar15 in the same household. Since you would have the parts to create an unregistered full auto. I have a relative that owns a Colt M16 and he got hit with that. Had to sell his really nice pre-ban colt AR.

So based on this logic, anyone that owns an AR-15 SBR cannot own any additional AR-15s because they could then make an unregistered SBR... yeah this is one of the dumbest things I've heard this week.

 

[VUPDblue]

anything predicated on "I heard" or "I was told" often gets lost in translation and most folks lend it less credence than firsthand accounts