how do you group?

[Double T]

Last time at the range, I managed to keep two mags in a little over a baseball at 7 yards.

I'm wondering how every groups their shots to judge their own precision?

5 rounds at 15 yards sound good for a start? I'm not too incredibly confident in my trigger mechanics to go out to 25 yet, I'm sure I could...but am unsure.

How would you guys do it? Or how do you do it?

I am a pretty good shot, just want to really make myself better, and I figure aiming to get an idea of my group size and shrinking it and moving closer to center would be a plus.

My sights are spot on right now, so I know any flyers are on me :-)

Any help would be awesome. I know how to figure precision and accuracy, I'm just wondering how you guys do it? I shoot my g19 best (and its cheaper) so I will be working with it first and foremost. Thanks!

TT

 

[redpitbull44]

To get an idea of what a gun is capable of, and where the sights are, I start at 10yd from a rest, then move back to 15yd, 25yd, and if it's decently accurate, 50yd.

That is my baseline of what the pistol can do. I make all adjustments (sights, ammo choice) before I worry about what I can do. Lets say a pistol will keep 2" or less out to 25yd from a rest. I know that any time I am shooting for accuracy, and not on the rest anything more than that is all me.

My goal is the gun's capability. I typically shoot through an entire magazine, and try to get each shot to hit the exact same point of aim. Once I start seeing acceptable groups, I try to do it faster, until I can empty the mag in as many seconds as there are rounds in the gun. Once you can shoot one shot per second into a 2" group, you are ready to step back to the next distance.

 

[ATM]

The other day, I shot several rounds into one very ragged hole so I moved back and tried again.


My next target was actually a much tighter hole. Real nice grouping. Hmm...






I suspect the problem with the first group can be attributed to muzzle blast.

 

[Double T]

Lol. Or bacon grease splatter

I am asking because I am really wanting to be able to shoot precise and accurate, and since my range is slow fire pretty much only; might as well have a nice manageable goal.

I am thinking about printing some targets and just doing three 5 shot groups per mag, and a whole mag on a 4th target...and see how that progresses from week to week. Also going to tape myself to see if I can see any trouble areas.

Wish I had the cash to goto another range, but 4 bucks a trip is hard to beat.

 

[redpitbull44]

You need to look into pistol shooter diagnostic targets. I would find you a picture but I am on my phone. Here's a link https://www.google.com/search?tbm=i....r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=1&biw=1440&bih=809 They look like a pie chart and describe how you are messing up your grip. You should be able to print them off for free. A laser is a good training tool as well.

 

[Hookeye]

Just remember, when you shoot away your aiming point the group (due to lost original aiming point) usually gets bigger.

 

[Tydeeh22]

emptying a magazine in ~2-3 seconds = a 10 inch spread on my part.. does the neighbors cat need stitches afterwards? hopefully not. ill practice less muzzle flip.

 

[redpitbull44]

Just remember, when you shoot away your aiming point the group (due to lost original aiming point) usually gets bigger.

Very true. All the more reason to keep all your shots inside the bulls eye.

emptying a magazine in ~2-3 seconds = a 10 inch spread on my part.. does the neighbors cat need stitches afterwards? hopefully not. ill practice less muzzle flip.

One shot per second is the goal. Do it in your head. BOOM. one one thousand. BOOM. one one thousand. BOOM. one one thousand. If you have proper grip and stance, this is achievable with typical auto pistol calibers (9/40/45). That's not even that fast. Competition shooters manage several hits per second pretty regularly. But then again, they get paid to shoot.

What I tell people is with your strong hand, you want to push forward and twist inward. With your off hand, you want to pull backwards and twist inward. This creates a positive lockup. Get used to shooting with both thumbs along the frame of the pistol. Rotate that off hand forward so you have more hand in contact with the pistol. The tip of your strong hand thumb should be on or just behind the bottom knuckle of your off hand thumb.

(random internet pic) Basically like this:

 

[Double T]

I understand the grouping theory, just wondering how other people do it. I also have the "diagnostic" saved as an image on my phone for reference.

Was just wondering if it was ok to start where I am, and get that down, and maybe run one round at the next longer distance once a rangetrip or so.

I am going to be running my 15 round mags, So I would set 4 targets to my stand, and do 3-5's, and one 15. One second for the 5's if possible, and 2-3 for the 15.

I believe Roush's pistol range is setup at 7, 10 or 15, and 25 yds.

Have been shooting 7 yds primarily.

 

[shibumiseeker]

You're ok. Not great, but not bad either. When I am doing double taps at 50' my group size for 5 sets (10 shots) will be about 5" and the shot timer tells me I average about .6 seconds between shots. This is with a 10mm, so there's a lot of recoil. With my .22lr target pistol I can do triple taps in just under a second and keep a 6" group at that distance.

When I do slow aimed fire and take my time with each shot I can usually do about a 2" 10 shot group at 50'.

But I also shoot almost every day and practice dry fire daily and run drills a lot. I also have a run and gun course on my property so I practice moving and shooting several times a month.

My GF is in LE and when they qualify monthly she has coworkers who cannot hit a standard man-size target in the center at 5' and they start at 5' and go to 75' and she usually is 2-3 points within perfect with all shots either in the kill zone or just off. Many of her coworkers would be doing good to keep a softball sized group at 7 yards.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

My GF is in LE and when they qualify monthly she has coworkers who cannot hit a standard man-size target in the center at 5'

I was about to comment on how horrible of a shot I am, but you made me feel much better.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

It all depends on what you hope to accomplish...

Are you shooting for groups, or are you training to shoot to stop a threat?

Yes, there certainly is bleed-over (pardon the pun) between the skills.

Say that you're in a handgunning glass and the drill you're doing is to hit 3-5 shots on two different targets that are ~7-10 yards apart. Softball-sized groups, at speed, in the "sternum area" of your target is what's generally minimally acceptable.

For pure target work - the above ain't gonna cut it.

BUT....practicing on tight groups via slow & steady aimed fire will also help you on your much faster "combat" type shooting drills.

I typically can only shoot on a "square range" - that means plenty of rules to follow while there. So, I find myself working on groups - as small as I can manage at whatever distance.

-J-

 

[handgun]

I usually group together with friends, makes a night of bs around the firepit more enjoyable. Occasionally i will group together with complete strangers, when that happens i aleays have my edc with me.

 

[Hoosier45]

It all depends on what you hope to accomplish...

Are you shooting for groups, or are you training to shoot to stop a threat?

Yes, there certainly is bleed-over (pardon the pun) between the skills.

Say that you're in a handgunning glass and the drill you're doing is to hit 3-5 shots on two different targets that are ~7-10 yards apart. Softball-sized groups, at speed, in the "sternum area" of your target is what's generally minimally acceptable.

For pure target work - the above ain't gonna cut it.

BUT....practicing on tight groups via slow & steady aimed fire will also help you on your much faster "combat" type shooting drills.

I typically can only shoot on a "square range" - that means plenty of rules to follow while there. So, I find myself working on groups - as small as I can manage at whatever distance.

-J-

This.

For me it also depends on what gun I am shooting. I usually start at 7 yards, then move back to 15, then 25, all off hand. If I am shooting my MK3 with the volquartsen trigger I get one ragged hole. One of my 1911s and the group is a little larger. My M&P and it's a little larger still. And if it is one of my revolvers, the group usually gets embarrassingly big.

 

[coorslight]

When I shoot I usually see what the gun will do at 50', when I am comfortable with the grouping I work on different drills at 7yards, until I can keep all shots where I want them, at a fairly rapid pace. If I am not happy with the results I don't carry it. After it reaches carry status I work on longer shots up to 50 yards. As far as group size as long as I can shoot minute of sternum I am happy.

 

[Kagnew]

The compartmented trays we had in the mess hall did the grouping for us.

 

[NHT3]

Best I can do with slow fire, 3 shots at 7 yards, but Indy guy 77 makes a very good point. When I went through the Gunsite class what they wanted was 6-8 inch groups.. Instructor's comment was "if you are shooting a 2" group you are shooting too slow".
[FONT=&quot]NRA Life member [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gunsite graduate Certified Glock armorer[/FONT]

 

[Hop]

Best I can do with slow fire, 3 shots at 7 yards, but Indy guy 77 makes a very good point. When I went through the Gunsite class what they wanted was 6-8 inch groups.. Instructor's comment was "if you are shooting a 2" group you are shooting too slow".
[FONT=&quot]NRA Life member [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gunsite graduate Certified Glock armorer[/FONT]

Wow, how did you find those 3 bullets? 7 yards? What did you use for a backstop? They look perfect!

j/k

I can group pretty good at 7 yards but not quite that good using my self defense gun. I'll also have at least 1 or 2 fliers per ~12-15 round mag that makes me not want to keep the target.

 

[Tombs]

Would someone explain to me something that has been confusing me for the better part of my adult life?

I can shoot a 1980's taurus model 85 snub nose into a 2" group at 25 yards standing, and do it even on an off day.

My new S&W 686 SSR, tricked out and tuned in every possible way, I can not get anywhere near the paper, or stay consistent with it, even using the exact same load. I know it is capable of great accuracy due to a couple flukes, but I just don't know what's wrong with me.

This trend of shooting snub nose revolvers infinitely better than anything else I shoot has followed me all my life, and I've never really even shot them that much.

 

[IndyGunner]

The other day, I shot several rounds into one very ragged hole so I moved back and tried again.


My next target was actually a much tighter hole. Real nice grouping. Hmm...

That is the exact reason why I prefer my deer at 50 yards rather than closer or farther away.