I thought everyone knew that the Minimum Wage was a socialist idea

[rambone]

Minimum Wage... the minimum amount of money an employer can legally pay an employee per hour.

Do people actually think that this is good for anybody?

The Federal Minimum wage was established in 1938 by President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who infamously expanded Government and shoved America further down the path of Big Government and Socialism.



I contend that the Federal Minimum Wage should be abolished.

1) Federal Minimum Wage is not constitutional. The 10th Amendment clearly states that matters not reserved for the Fed's should be left up to the states. This matter should be left up to states to decide, and the wiser states will not implement a minimum wage at all.

2) Minimum Wage does not help the poor. In fact it hurts the poor. Those on "minimum wage" are most affected by prices of small consumer products. If the Government forces employers to raise prices on labor, then their products increase. And the people who feel that increase the most are people who make the least. The poor suffer when Government establishes/raises the minimum wage.

3) Minimum Wage works against the Free Market. In a free market, if a person has a job to offer for a certain price, and someone accepts it, then they have struck a deal. Who is the Government to dictate what is a "fair" price? The worker is free to quit the job, nobody is forcing him to stay. It is a free contract between consenting adults, an exchange of labor for an agreed upon price. There are no victims in such an exchange.

4) Minimum Wage eliminates jobs. Companies may have potential to hire more individuals at a certain wage, but when an arbitrary limit is set on wages, this may not happen. The company is forced to scale back (or not expand) in order to function at the capacity in which the Government has arbitrarily set via wage controls. Without such limitations there would invariably be more positions available for entry-level workers to choose from.

5) Minimum Wage stifles economic growth. For the reasons laid out in #4, economic growth is slowed down because companies are not permitted to grow as quickly as they would otherwise have the ability to without regulators telling them what kind of contracts they are allowed to enter into.

6) Minimum Wage causes some positions to become extinct. The higher minimum wage has risen, the less feasible it is to provide certain services at market prices. One example is the "Gas Pump Attendant." Nobody would buy gas at the prices it would require to keep paying the attendant Minimum Wage, so the job disappears entirely. Minimum Wage didn't help the guy with that job.

7) Minimum Wage causes the price of everything to go up. Look at Fast-Food for a perfect example. It is the type of job designed for entry-level workers to provide a very menial service. If employers are arbitrarily forced to pay them a certain wage, then the Government is indirectly forcing the price of their products to go up. Years ago the thought of a $5.00 hamburger would make people scoff. If minimum wage was $15.00, then hamburgers would cost something around that price too. And so would every other widget and product that required any assembly in America.

8) Minimum Wage causes American goods to to be less competitive internationally. Other countries are able to provide much cheaper products due to the near-slavelike conditions used in their manufacturing processes. Minimum Wage keeps America well out of competitive range in many manufacturing industries.



Remember that abolishing Minimum Wage does not mean that Sweat-Shops are the necessary alternative. It means that free people are free to enter into agreements that they decide are fair.

In a Free Market, the market will decide fair prices. If you don't want to work for a wage, you can negotiate or leave. It is not slavery or indentured servitude if you are free to leave.

Please discuss. Rambone out.

 

[mrjarrell]

Many unions love the mw, since their wages are tied to it and any increase in the mw is an automatic increase in their pay. As long as the unions get a say in things, (via their lobbying efforts and voting blocks) then the mw will never be allowed to go away.

 

[SSGSAD]

Many unions love the mw, since their wages are tied to it and any increase in the mw is an automatic increase in their pay. As long as the unions get a say in things, (via their lobbying efforts and voting blocks) then the mw will never be allowed to go away.

Yes, this is what I have always heard... thanks for confirming.....

 

[kabrown]

I think that the minimum wage is indeed a socialist principle. So is forcing employers to allow employees to take bathroom breaks. Also, limiting the amount of hazardous chemicals workers can be exposed to, requiring the use of certain safe practices and equipment, and requiring employers to monitor hazards and keep records of workplace injuries and illnesses are socialist as well. I'm not arguing for or against, I'm just saying.

 

[dross]

The minimum wage is moot at best, harmful at worst.

Supporting the minimum wage is an exercise in economic ignorance. Prices, including the price for labor, is set by the market, not by a decision. If I offer too little for a given set of qualifications, no one qualified will take my job. If I am forced to offer more for a set of qualifications than those qualifications are worth, I will either go without that hire, raise my prices (if the market will allow it for my product), or raise the job qualifications to a point that reflects the reality of the wage I'm being forced to pay.

 

[smoking357]

Everyone does know it's a Socialist idea. The problem is that Republicans like a heavy dose of Socialism. They just give it a fun name like "common sense," "for the country," or some other attempt to deflect criticism.

 

[rambone]

I think that the minimum wage is indeed a socialist principle. So is forcing employers to allow employees to take bathroom breaks. Also, limiting the amount of hazardous chemicals workers can be exposed to, requiring the use of certain safe practices and equipment, and requiring employers to monitor hazards and keep records of workplace injuries and illnesses are socialist as well. I'm not arguing for or against, I'm just saying.

Let's not confuse repealing the Federal Minimum Wage with having a total lack of Government.

Most of your counter-points seem to be workplace safety issues. If there is a place for organizations like OSHA, it is on the State level. It is not an acceptable role of the Federal Government.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I had my first job for 6 months when they had an increase from $3.35 to $3.85. All of a sudden I was training people that made the same as me. I didnt get a raise but every new person did. Minimum wage should be ONE DOLLAR. If someone is willing to work for that, more power to them.

 

[T-rav]

Everyone does know it's a Socialist idea. The problem is that Republicans like a heavy dose of Socialism. They just give it a fun name like "common sense," "for the country," or some other attempt to deflect criticism.

Republicans arent the ones that increased the minimum wage in the 110th congress in less than 100 hours after session started.

If anything let the states decide on a min. wage. Cost of living in NYC is larger than in oh say Logansport, In.

 

[kabrown]

Let's not confuse repealing the Federal Minimum Wage with having a total lack of Government.

Most of your counter-points seem to be workplace safety issues. If there is a place for organizations like OSHA, it is on the State level. It is not an acceptable role of the Federal Government.

So it's ok for the state government to be socialist, but just not the federal?

So why does the government need to regulate workplace safety? Why not leave that up to the free market?

Let's revisit what you said earlier, but substitute a few words:

"In a Free Market, the market will decide fair [strike]prices[/strike] workplace safety. If you don't want to work for a [strike]wage[/strike] unsafe employer, you can negotiate or leave. It is not slavery or indentured servitude if you are free to leave."

 

[88GT]

So it's ok for the state government to be socialist, but just not the federal?

Since the Constitution was for the FEDERAL government, I'm gonna have to go with a big "yup" on this one.

 

[38special]

Republicans arent the ones that increased the minimum wage in the 110th congress in less than 100 hours after session started.

If anything let the states decide on a min. wage. Cost of living in NYC is larger than in oh say Logansport, In.

Stop using facts.

Republicans are bad no matter what pesky facts you have.

 

[rambone]

So it's ok for the state government to be socialist, but just not the federal?

So why does the government need to regulate workplace safety? Why not leave that up to the free market?

Let's revisit what you said earlier, but substitute a few words:

"In a Free Market, the market will decide fair [strike]prices[/strike] workplace safety. If you don't want to work for a [strike]wage[/strike] unsafe employer, you can negotiate or leave. It is not slavery or indentured servitude if you are free to leave."

I'm not saying that I would support socialist legislation being proposed by State governments, but it would not be breaking the 10th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

I'm not saying I would be against Free Market workplace safety either.

I don't think regulating workplace safety has nearly the far reaching economic effects that mandating wage controls does. You are free to disagree with my premises if you think Minimum Wage actually helps the little guy.

Here's a question: What would the effects of a $100.00/hour Minimum Wage be? Everyone would be rich then right? Or would it ripple through the economy and make everything more expensive, inflate the currency, and help no one? Bathroom breaks aren't causing those kind of problems, I'm just saying.

 

[SavageEagle]

Hadn't really thought about it....

 

[Eddie]

I'm not saying that I would support socialist legislation being proposed by State governments, but it would not be breaking the 10th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

I'm not saying I would be against Free Market workplace safety either.

I don't think regulating workplace safety has nearly the far reaching economic effects that mandating wage controls does. You are free to disagree with my premises if you think Minimum Wage actually helps the little guy.

Here's a question: What would the effects of a $100.00/hour Minimum Wage be? Everyone would be rich then right? Or would it ripple through the economy and make everything more expensive, inflate the currency, and help no one? Bathroom breaks aren't causing those kind of problems, I'm just saying.

As far as workplace safety it depends a lot on what type of business someone is in to measure the costs. If expensive new equipment or procedures are required then yes, it costs the employer more money to be safe.

Everything a business does; phone lines, utility bills, wages, fuel, whatever has a cost and that cost has to be factored into the the end price for whatever that business produces.

I think there is a common misperception that all businesses have huge profit margins; that wages are just a small fraction of operating costs and that the end price far exceeds the cost of production. It is perceived that ordering a business to pay more wages to its workers just means that the rich owner pays a little bit of their profits back to the workers.

In reality, in order to compete, a lot of businesses try to keep their end price low. Profit margin per unit is slim but they hope to grab a larger share of the market and sell a lot of units for a small profit on each unit.

Artificially tinkering with the wage just means that the business owner has to recalculate his cost/end price ratios to adjust to the increased cost of wages. The money for higher wages doesn't magically appear out of nowhere, it has to come from higher end prices or cutting costs to produce.

Since most businesses will try to keep their cost to produce as low as they can anyway, they will already be buying raw material as cheaply as possible, using the least expensive equipment and so forth. If they raise price, they lose market share. Loss of market share means they can't move as many units so income will drop and the readjustment process will start over.

That leaves wages as the only way to adjust cost. Therefore, if a business employs 16 people at minimum wage and minimum wage goes up if they can't reduce cost to produce and they can't increase end price then they fire one or two workers to meet the new payroll demands and make the remaining workers work harder.

To recap, Minimun Wage Increases either make us pay more for the things we buy or it adds to unemployment and makes everyone else work harder.

 

[Fletch]

It also adds to unemployment by hurting workers at the margin. If minimum wage is $7/hour, but a young, old, inexperienced, unskilled, or handicapped worker's labor is only worth $5/hour, that person will be unemployed.

 

[Antelope08]

Here's a question: What would the effects of a $100.00/hour Minimum Wage be? Everyone would be rich then right? Or would it ripple through the economy and make everything more expensive, inflate the currency, and help no one? Bathroom breaks aren't causing those kind of problems, I'm just saying.

I agree, if the minimum wage is so great and it needed to protect the "little guy" lets maket it $25.00 and hour. That would be 50K a year, a good wage form most people. They could buy a car, house and live a good life. But wait, not every one is worth $25.00 an hour. The minimum wage is a number picked by politicians to get votes fom the uniformed voters, it makes them look like they care.

 

[kabrown]

Since the Constitution was for the FEDERAL government, I'm gonna have to go with a big "yup" on this one.

Ok, I just wanted to clarify his position. I thought that he was against all forms of socialism, not just that from the Federal government.

So, if it's ok for the states to be socialist, then it's ok for the states to impose their own minimum wage laws, right?

 

[mrjarrell]

I think a case could also be made that the minimum wage has fueled the underground economy where undocumented workers are concerned as well. Many of them work for well below the mw, and come to this country to do so, knowing there is a market for their services. They get paid the actual market value of their services, unlike documented workers. The mw distorts market value where labour is concerned.

 

[Fletch]

I think a case could also be made that the minimum wage has fueled the underground economy where undocumented workers are concerned as well. Many of them work for well below the mw, and come to this country to do so, knowing there is a market for their services. They get paid the actual market value of their services, unlike documented workers. The mw distorts market value where labour is concerned.

Right on dude... I'd rep ya, but I'm shot to slidelock.