I was ALMOST robbed today!

[ATM]

"Forcible felony" defined

Sec. 11. "Forcible felony" means a felony that involves the use or
threat of force against a human being, or in which there is imminent
danger of bodily injury to a human being.


...You have to PROVE IN COURT, that you were in reasonable fear of SERIOUS BODILY INJURY... not a black eye, SERIOUS BODILY INJURY...

No you don't.

The robbery attempt with the verbal threat to hurt him and subsequent charge would have been plenty. No need to also satisfy an imminent danger of bodily injury according to code.


Bad guys - please note: If you're going to hurt someone, hurt them. Talking about hurting them may get you shot quicker.


ETA: Also, since this was my first serious post in this thread...

1. Everyone can benefit from training if they have a teachable attitude.

2. Glad you prevailed, OP, but IMO you have been overly sensitive to anything but praise in the majority of this thread. (Yes, I read it all.)

3. BOOYA!

 

[Fargo]

"Forcible felony" defined

Sec. 11. "Forcible felony" means a felony that involves the use or
threat of force against a human being, or in which there is imminent
danger of bodily injury to a human being.


You would be on the stand trying to convince the jury that you "reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury"

What felony is "running at someone"? Did the guy outweigh the OP by 100 pounds to make him fear for his life? He didn't indicate that or imply that.

Was "a Hispanic male in a heavy coat" justification for deadly force? hell no
If I draw back and act like I'm going to punch you in the face, that is not justification either.

The case I posted above where someone PUSHES YOU, is not justification.

You have to PROVE IN COURT, that you were in reasonable fear of SERIOUS BODILY INJURY... not a black eye, SERIOUS BODILY INJURY

That's why pepper spray (reasonable force) is an option for unarmed perps, as Paul Gomez (linked above) suggests.

You didn't post a case above, you posted some comments by an elected prosecutor as regards the fear of injury section of the code. They do not apply to the "forcible felony" section of the code.

For example:

1. Someone comes up to you and says "I hate your hair" and pushes you. They have are committing B Misdemeanor battery and you are justified in using only proportional force to end their unlawful attack on you under IC 35-41-3-2(a) sentence 1.

A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force.

This is what the prosecutor was talking about in his example.

2. Someone comes up to you and says "give me your money or I'll hurt you" and pushes you. They are committing C felony robbery, a forcible felony under both Indiana statute and caselaw. You now are justified in using deadly force to the extent necessary to end their felonious behavior under IC 35-41-3-2(a) sentence 2:

However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony.

The only physical force exerted in both examples is the push. However, because one was in the course of a forcible felony, the law gives you the right to respond VERY differently.

As ATM pointed out, The bolded red "or" is the part you are ignoring. SBI or the commission of a forcible felony. Once the forcible felony part is satisfied, that is what the statute demands for you to deploy deadly force as reasonably necessary.

Joe

 

[HICKMAN]

good points ATM and Fargo, I see what you mean.

Problem is, the general public doesn't know what are felonies and what are not. Would have been handy if our criminal justice major would have pointed it out, eh?

I personally won't risk going to jail for life and will stick to pepper spray until a gun is required... and the right hand will be on the gun while the left is deploying the pain.

 

[Fargo]

good points ATM and Fargo, I see what you mean.

Problem is, the general public doesn't know what are felonies and what are not. Would have been handy if our criminal justice major would have pointed it out, eh?

I personally won't risk going to jail for life and will stick to pepper spray until a gun is required... and the right hand will be on the gun while the left is deploying the pain.

To each their own sir, I'll certainly not pretend to know what is the best response for you. Just don't rely on that OC too much, I've seen some folks that appeared to enjoy the taste of it, especially if drugs or high levels of booze were involved.

Best,

Joe

 

[eurobeaner]

him:give me all your money and i wont hurt you
me: sir, could you please specify the action you would take if i did NOT give you all of my money
him: uhh... ill.... kill you?
me: ok sir, i was just clarifying to make sure i was indeed justified in pulling my gun. thank you
him: no problem man, anytime

i guess robberies should go like this?

 

[ATM]

...i guess robberies should go like this?

Unless you prefer the Ted Nugent variant:

him:"Give me all your money and i wont hurt..."

bang bang bang

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

Unless you prefer the Ted Nugent variant:

him:"Give me all your money and i wont hurt..."

bang bang bang

All hail Uncle Ted! Nugent for president 2012!

 

[Armed & Christian]

I guess so! I mean really? i had a bad day already and his comment was not needed, i didnt need corrected! lol

Yeah, you did. I wasn't trying to be pedantic or start a fight; just trying to get some learning to occur so you would know the proper terminology & not sound like a moron. I was trying to present it in a humorous way, but you got sand in your vag...

Oh, look what I found!

 

[jeremy]

Yeah, you did. I wasn't trying to be pedantic or start a fight; just trying to make some learning occur you you would know the proper terminology. I was trying to present it in a humorous way, but you got sand in your vag...

Oh, look what I found!

Grammar...

If you are going to bust someones testicles, to force them to learn. At least scrub your post for Grammar and Spelling...

 

[jbrooks19]

If you were truly "Christian" like your name implies, you would not use that much vulgarity referring to getting "sand in my vag" or insult people

Yeah, you did. I wasn't trying to be pedantic or start a fight; just trying to get some learning to occur so you would know the proper terminology & not sound like a moron. I was trying to present it in a humorous way, but you got sand in your vag...

Oh, look what I found!

 

[Dirtebiker]

Here is where I learned, feel free to sign up:

Adaptive Consulting & Training

Welcome to Fortress Defense Consultants Frank Sharpe - Instructor

Defense Training International, Inc. John Farnam

another good source locally, who I need to attend in the future is here on INGO as well:

Tactical Firearms Training, LLC




First of all, grow up. Massad Ayoob has been recognized as an expert witness for the courts in weapons and shooting cases across the country since 1979 and an LEO for almost 40 years. Pull up your big girl panties and learn something.

Show me where you learned that I am not legally allowed to draw or fire my weapon when threatened and/or assaulted!



I know the answer in my case, you have to know that answer when sitting in front of the jury. You carry a gun and never considered any of this? Do you even have a gun lawyer to call if you get in a shooting?

I'll try one last time and then I guess I'll just ignore you!
I asked you specific questions about your statements, you have not answered any of them. You only continue to TELL ME to go get training. First, what have I said that makes you think that I have no training? I can tell you, if and when I DO want to take more classes, I won't need you to list them for me, evn though I am pretty much computer illiterate, I can do my own research and decide for myself who I want teaching me!

Your telling me to grow up?! What is that for? Pull up my " big girl panties"? WTH? Everyone here , feel free to correct me, but I think that's extremely immature, and deffinately uncalled for!

Even though you refuse to answer my questions, I was willing to take a look at the videos that you took the time to dig up. I simply said that I stopped watching them when, in the second video, the speaker used vulgar language that I don't appreciate, and that I'm pretty sure is a violation of INGO rules!
So , if that means that I am the one that is immature then so be it! I'll be immature and exercise my right to not listen to (and not subject my family to) the vulgarity that comes from the mouth of your idol! I don't care who he is or what credentials he has! I don't have much respect for anyone who can't express themselves without resorting to that kind of language! If you consider it appropriate, then play it for your wife and kids, but please dont post it on INGO!
I won't sink to your level and say what comes to mind when you feel you need to talk about men in women's underwear. I'll leave you to your fantasies!


I'll add one more question to the others that you continue to ignore,



What is a "gun lawyer"?

 

[HICKMAN]

I asked you specific questions about your statements, you have not answered any of them. You only continue to TELL ME to go get training.

Exactly, I can't answer the questions for you. First, I don't know if you are young, old, 6'5 300 pound wrasslin champ or 150 pound world of warcraft player. Others already pointed about above that they feel shooting to stop the threat would be justified.

Second, I won't divulge information I paid for and that others get paid to share. Do you think INGOer GLOCK21 (Frank Sharpe of Fortress Defense) wants me handing out his company's training material?

I can do my own research and decide for myself who I want teaching me!

Awesome, I was only pointing out some that was recommended to me and shared for everyone, not just you.

in the second video, the speaker used vulgar language that I don't appreciate

I can understand your feelings there, I often don't hear the words because they don't bother me. Vulgar language is common among military, LEO and many Americans. You chose to ignore GOOD information from one of the top experts in the country because of a bad joke he made, that's your choice. I know preachers who can deal with it, but here's hoping a robber never cusses at you.

What is a "gun lawyer"?

already answered that:

Tactical Firearms Training, LLC

Tactical Firearms Training, LLC was formed by Guy A. Relford, a long-standing NRA Certified Firearms Instructor and Range Safety Officer, and an attorney for the past 27 years. In forming TFT, Guy sought to address a long-standing need in Indiana - the need to not only provide Indiana gun owners with the sophisticated instruction required to be safe and effective with their firearms, but also the critical need to provide the detailed legal training necessary for Indiana gun owners to fully understand and comply with their responsibilities under Indiana and federal law.

Gun laws are highly complex and sometimes confusing even to lawyers. As a result, gun owners often don't fully understand the laws affecting their ownership and use of guns in Indiana until they have already been accused of breaking the law in some way. Tactical Firearms Training, LLC seeks to avoid that situation by providing its Comprehensive Indiana Gun Law training to responsible Indiana gun owners who are committed to not only being able to operate their firearms safely and effectively, but also to fully complying with all of the legal requirements imposed on Indiana gun owners by state and federal law.

 

[bwframe]

. . . what kind of person charges at someone who is holding a gun? A reasonable individual could infer from that behavior that the assailant is either crazy or has some as yet unseen means for doing harm that emboldens them...

...Decisions are hard!

I think this is a very good question. It makes the decision to draw your gun oh so critical. If your gun is out, you are committed to defend it from loss. If your gun is holstered you have other options.

IMHO - if charged, with a gun in your hand, your only option is to shoot. At that point in time, there is nothing you can do to keep your weapon securely in your control other than use it.

Maybe the lawyers (or even the wannabie interweb lawyers,) can jump in here to correct me if I'm wrong;
You can be 100% right legally and still your legal counsel costs can run in the tens of thousands proving you weren't the one who brought a gun to a fist fight. Correct?

 

[HICKMAN]

I think this is a very good question. It makes the decision to draw your gun oh so critical. If your gun is out, you are committed to defend it from loss. If your gun is holstered you have other options.

IMHO - if charged, with a gun in your hand, your only option is to shoot. At that point in time, there is nothing you can do to keep your weapon securely in your control other than use it.

Maybe the lawyers (or even the wannabie interweb lawyers,) can jump in here to correct me if I'm wrong;
You can be 100% right legally and still your legal counsel costs can run in the tens of thousands proving you weren't the one who brought a gun to a fist fight.

Wisdom, thank you for sharing it good sir.

 

[HICKMAN]

To each their own sir, I'll certainly not pretend to know what is the best response for you. Just don't rely on that OC too much, I've seen some folks that appeared to enjoy the taste of it, especially if drugs or high levels of booze were involved.

Roger that, I'll keep an open mind and ask questions when I get to TFT gun law class one of these days.

 

[Caleb]

good points ATM and Fargo, I see what you mean.

Problem is, the general public doesn't know what are felonies and what are not. Would have been handy if our criminal justice major would have pointed it out, eh?

I personally won't risk going to jail for life and will stick to pepper spray until a gun is required... and the right hand will be on the gun while the left is deploying the pain.

As a gun owner and operator, I feel it's my responsibility to know what are felonies and what are not.

 

[MACHINEGUN]

American names.. LMFAO!

 

[jeremy]

I think this is a very good question. It makes the decision to draw your gun oh so critical. If your gun is out, you are committed to defend it from loss. If your gun is holstered you have other options.

IMHO - if charged, with a gun in your hand, your only option is to shoot. At that point in time, there is nothing you can do to keep your weapon securely in your control other than use it.

You still have other options than to shoot the individual. You could just beat him with the pistol. I have seen a couple of persons that were smacked with a Pistol, did not look like something I wanted to try....

You can be 100% right legally and still your legal counsel costs can run in the tens of thousands proving you weren't the one who brought a gun to a fist fight. Correct?

I like your phrasing here. I would add that your Legal Costs for taking any Weapon, including your hands, to a Fist Fight could still land you in the tens of thousands proving your innocence...

 

[churchmouse]

You can be 100% right legally and still your legal counsel costs can run in the tens of thousands proving you weren't the one who brought a gun to a fist fight. Correct??


This is an absolutely true statement. Been there, done that, not pleasant but necessary.

 

[Spanky46151]

Should have turned it around on him. Draw your Glock and say "Now, give me all your money and it is I who won't hurt YOU!"