Ideas on a Long Range 2012 Legal Indiana Rifle Round?

[JTinIN]

With the current rules for Indiana Deer hunting, what has everyone come up with to be with in the rules, but get a little extra range out of the rifle?

Easy to form wildcats are fine (factory cases are still a plus), maybe in a single shot so feeding is not a factor, but ideally would like to have something that was a lot flatter than classic pistol rounds and have a higher SD ... can't make the range and energy of a classic 270 Win thru 340 Wby but wondering how close one can get ;-)

 

[42769vette]

i run a 358 bfg and could not be happier with it. there is a guy named oscar in richmond that runs a rifle almost identical to mine. let me know if you want to get together and check mine out before making your decision. the 358 bfg does not take advantage of the 1.8 case length but is more than capable of anchoring a deer at 300 yds

 

[fireball168]

the 358 bfg does not take advantage of the 1.8 case length but is more than capable of anchoring a deer at 300 yds

The 358 BFG 1.625" does not take advantage of the 1.8" proposal.

The 358 BFG 1.8" does.

 

[42769vette]

The 358 BFG 1.625" does not take advantage of the 1.8" proposal.

The 358 BFG 1.8" does.

didn't know such a thing was out yet. can i just re ream my barrel and re headspace and go?

 

[JTinIN]

i run a 358 bfg and could not be happier with it. there is a guy named oscar in richmond that runs a rifle almost identical to mine. let me know if you want to get together and check mine out before making your decision. the 358 bfg does not take advantage of the 1.8 case length but is more than capable of anchoring a deer at 300 yds

Update - see the link in fireball168 sig line now - everything I need for info on the 358bfg

Maybe can take a look someday when looking at low power tactical scopes ;-)

 

[fireball168]

didn't know such a thing was out yet. can i just re ream my barrel and re headspace and go?

I'm just waiting on the final word, I'm told it is still hung up getting approval from the AG and Governor office.

Your magazine box isn't going to be long enough to utilize the longer cartridge OAL in an original WSSM Model 70.

2.6" with a 225 Nosler Partition.

 

[42769vette]

I'm just waiting on the final word, I'm told it is still hung up getting approval from the AG and Governor office.

Your magazine box isn't going to be long enough to utilize the longer cartridge OAL in an original WSSM Model 70.

2.6" with a 225 Nosler Partition.

im always looking for a excuse to switch to a badger dm

 

[42769vette]

Update - see the link in fireball168 sig line now - everything I need for info on the 358bfg

Maybe can take a look someday when looking at low power tactical scopes ;-)

ill be getting a handfull on thursday

 

[JTinIN]

Thanks

Doing research for a friend on better option for a deer rifle, myself had to retire for hunting in Michigan a few years back due to heath issues.

He is now running a 500 S&W in an Encore and another option would be to come up with a better BC bullet for 500 S&W in an Encore - https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2472950#post2472950

 

[Yeah]

Flatness is nice, but SD is a pointless consideration. Wind drift is the Real Deal though, which is why I can't keep a straight face when any 0.358"+ cartridge is pitched as "long range".

What is the highest G1 BC 0.358" bullet, 0.3? A guy would have drop a whole bunch of balls to let a contraption like that get close to even a 270 Win.

 

[Skip]

.421BC for the Nosler Accubond and I think the Partition too. Long range is subjective. Here in Indiana, for deer hunting, that would be over 300 yards. Not exactly LONG range as some call it but TONS further than a slug gun (which all of us were held to just a short time ago) is going to give you.

The trick to the Nosler in the .358/25 WSSM is to get it going fast enough in a 1:14" barrel to stablize to take advantage of the best BC out there for the caliber.


FWIW

 

[Skip]

JT, there are lots of other options. Do a search of the forum. We have been talking about all kinds of rounds for deer hunting next year taking advantage of the 1.8" rule. Although, once you get MOA and 2500fps with a 200gr + bullet, um, what more do you need?

The .358/25 WSSM, which is the generic form of about a dozen other wildcat Indiana cartridges, will do all you want and then some.

If you need any help, just say the word. I can direct you to some really fine folks that will help you out!

 

[Yeah]

You can get an NPT to 0.421, with a rifle legal cartridge?

With Nosler's habits I can see it needing 3000 to get there and likely faster if it ever gets there at all. At the velocities that can be reached the things will probably fall below Nosler's ridiculously high minimum opening velocity by the 300 yard mark, so you might as well call 300 yards 'long range'.

There is a shot on my place that is almost double that, and I'm in the southern half of the state.

 

[JTinIN]

Flatness is nice, but SD is a pointless consideration. Wind drift is the Real Deal though, which is why I can't keep a straight face when any 0.358"+ cartridge is pitched as "long range".

What is the highest G1 BC 0.358" bullet, 0.3? A guy would have drop a whole bunch of balls to let a contraption like that get close to even a 270 Win.

We are in part on the same page, wind drift is determined in part by BC, which in turn is determined in part by SD. Additionally SD determines in part terminal ballistics. Bottom line did not wish to get the flat trajectory by shooting a very very light for the caliber bullet.

 

[JTinIN]

JT, there are lots of other options. Do a search of the forum. We have been talking about all kinds of rounds for deer hunting next year taking advantage of the 1.8" rule. Although, once you get MOA and 2500fps with a 200gr + bullet, um, what more do you need?

The .358/25 WSSM, which is the generic form of about a dozen other wildcat Indiana cartridges, will do all you want and then some.

If you need any help, just say the word. I can direct you to some really fine folks that will help you out!

Thanks the research is taking two paths for now, how good can the existing S&W 500 Enclore do and what is another option. At which point the cost and differences can be compared (just the way I work ... is A better than B ;-).

Will be interesting to see who comes up with the largest 1.8" round .... assume a 50BMG shortened to 1.8" and necked to 35 cal might be a "little over kill" for white tail .... but there is always the 20mm

 

[Dirc]

Slightly different tack here, but could you take a 23" 45-70 T/C G2 rifle barrel and mount it on a handgun frame? That would give you the full burn barrel length on a pistol. You'd likely need a rest or bipod though. Legal/technical issues?

 

[Skip]

Thanks the research is taking two paths for now, how good can the existing S&W 500 Enclore do and what is another option. At which point the cost and differences can be compared (just the way I work ... is A better than B ;-).

Will be interesting to see who comes up with the largest 1.8" round .... assume a 50BMG shortened to 1.8" and necked to 35 cal might be a "little over kill" for white tail .... but there is always the 20mm

I do know this, a 500S&W Mag in an Encore is not going to be fun to shoot. Been there done that with an H&R. Um, no thanks! It literally shook one scope to pieces that I put on it.

The .358/25 WSSM seems to me to be the perfect fit in the Encore. Mine is from MGM and was purchased in Wabash. There are other products coming out, bunch of crazy names floating around, still, I don't think there is enough increase in any factor to warrant a switch on my part. Unless of course, the price someone is willing to pay for my current barrel is high enough! haha

 

[Broom_jm]

We are in part on the same page, wind drift is determined in part by BC, which in turn is determined in part by SD. Additionally SD determines in part terminal ballistics. Bottom line did not wish to get the flat trajectory by shooting a very very light for the caliber bullet.

I understand your concern about SD (Sectional Density) but it's no longer nearly as important as it used to be, in defining terminal performance. In the old cup n' core days, way back before the Partition and Core-lokt designs came on the scene, SD was the most important number to know, for good terminal performance. Rounds like the 6.5x55 and 270 made their name in the game fields, in large part, because they were loaded with bullets of good SD.

In today's world, with bonded cores, jacket partitions, and particularly with expanding solid copper bullets, SD just doesn't matter as much. A perfect example is the Barnes 180gr TSX, in 35 caliber. No, it doesn't have a BC over .400, but the low SD number doesn't matter AT ALL. Whatever animal it hits, presuming decent velocity, is going to be in serious trouble. You could drive it with anything from a 35 Remington-short to a 358BFG 1.8" (or a full-length 358 STA) and it's going to hit, open, stay together, cause incredible damage...and exit, most likely. About the only knock on the 180gr TSX is the price tag, which is pretty steep, and availability. They're a new offering and not easy to lay hands on, at the moment.

To answer your question: A 358WSM 1.8" (BFG or otherwise), shooting a suitable bullet that will open up properly at the distance you'll be hunting, is certainly the flattest-shooting, longest-range option available. Depending on what you consider "long-range" that will be somewhere around 300 yards; maybe a bit more, with modest hold-over.

To be frank, that is a LONG shot, for most folks...me included. Even when hunting out of state, with my 270 Winchester, I consider 300 yards my personal maximum range. Unless the person you're researching this for is a fairly accomplished shooter, there is no need for more gun. Plus, with additional effective range comes added recoil, making it that much harder to shoot accurately, for most folks. In other words, there is a point of diminishing returns when trying to get more range from a 35-caliber rifle. I am quite happy with anything that I can shoot 200-300 yards with, that doesn't send snot flying out of my nose when I touch it off. YMMV. ... etc, etc.

 

[kludge]

Thanks the research is taking two paths for now, how good can the existing S&W 500 Enclore do and what is another option.

The .500S&W (and this is a bit rough since the MV numbers are pulled out a hat) with a 325gr Barnes @2300fps sighted 3" high at 100yd will be 3" low at 210 yards and you have a "top of the back" hold at ~250 yards. That's about as good as it gets for the .500.

The .460S&W will have *very* similar trajectory with a Barnes 275gr @2400fps.

And I've heard people say the recoil is as much or more than 3" slugs.

The .358 WSSM duplicates the .358 Win (more or less) and is +/-3" out to ~230-240 yards and is "top of the back" at 270-290 yards. This is the rifle I use and recoil feels like a .30-06 (go figure, muzzle energy is the same). These numbers hold for the 200gr Hornady and 225gr SGK. Bullet performance (expansion) might get sketchy beyond 250 yards.

The .358 WSM 1.8" will probably give .35 Whelen ballistics... the Noslers are pretty long for the WSSM, but I think the WSM 1.8" will probably be able to handle them, and so the BC goes up past 0.4 and it will be +/-3" out to 250-260 yards, and "top of the back" is going to be around 325 yards.

As it is, the recoil of the .358 WSSM (200gr @ 2525fps and 225gr @ 2380fps) doesn't bother me, but I know that the 225gr Noslers at 2600 is going to hurt. (I'm fairly recoil sensitive.)

On the lighter side... the .357 Max, .357 Herret, .35 Rem 1.8", .358 GNR, are going to have mild recoil in comparison to anything mentioned so far, and are good to 200 yards.

A 200gr FTX pushed to 2100fps will be +/-3" out to 200 yards. This bullet was designed (per an e-mail to me from Hornady) for 1600-2000fps. With a MV of 2100fps you just fall under 1600fps at 200yd. 250 yards is a "top of the back" hold; I wouldn't push it that far, yet velocity and energy are still above where a .357 Magnum handgun is at the muzzle.

I would guess that most handloaders could safely push the FTX a bit faster than 2100fps. *IF* you can safety get to 2300fps, 250 yards would be within the design envelope of the bullet.

 

[kludge]

Slightly different tack here, but could you take a 23" 45-70 T/C G2 rifle barrel and mount it on a handgun frame? That would give you the full burn barrel length on a pistol. You'd likely need a rest or bipod though. Legal/technical issues?

IC 35-47-1-6
"Handgun"
Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.


IOW if it's >26" it's no longer a handgun, otherwise you're GTG. IANAL.