Never implied that the elder driver made a sound choice. But his choice came from his perception of events and the officer's choice came from a different perspective. I'm sure those types of youtube videos play a part in LE training exercises.
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If you saw this guy, would you shoot him?
- Thread starter rambone
- Start date
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Yes. Yes. Yes. That is where I have the problem. We always talk about being responsible for your actions right? Others have sad this officer is a good man. I don't know him so I don't know that is the case. I do believe from what we have seen that he had no evil intent, and just made a very bad mistake. That being said, he is still responsible for his actions.Not the old guy who may not have done things in the best manner. If this officer is a good guy, this will tear him up. Can I understand how this happened? Of course. Just understanding it though doesn't equal condoning. If this was a one time incident maybe we could just move on, but it isn't and eventually it would behoove us to figure something out that doesn't just involve saying people should not exit their cars during a traffic stop, that isn't the only time an officer has to use his judgement.
.
Kirk Freeman
Grandmaster
It depends. Did one do anything or not? Are you speaking of the driver? His actions would impact the civil suit as to the driver's contributing negligence.
Figure what out? There is nothing to figure out.
Don't hop out of your car like that bonehead Boston T. Party is telling people and don't point guns, or gun like objects, blue guns, waterguns, canes, at people on the side of darkened roads.
THERE ARE GUNS HERE!
The officer did nothing wrong. It is not like the copper ran up and shot him while the driver was in the vehicle. The officer acted reasonably under the circumstances. The burden to learn here is on the drivers.
Don't do that stupid **** that the a-holes in the popular gun press are telling you to do just so the a-holes can be all edgy and controversial and sell books or spots in classes or whatever they are hawking. The a-holes don't care about you and won't be there are when you do stupid **** which the police can shoot you for. That stupid **** that the boneheads in the gun press are telling people will get you shot.
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public servant
Grandmaster
Like following simple reasonable commands? Or not waving around objects that, on the side of the road during a rapidly evolving situation, could be construed as a firearm?
- Sep 3, 2009
- 7,726
- 38
Sounds reasonable
CathyInBlue
Grandmaster
So, if I stumble upon a LEO and that LEO appears to me to be threatening my life, I'm free to shoot first and shout orders to drop the gun later and I too will get off scott free? I mean, after all, I reasonably thought he was threatening my life.
No no no, please don't tell me that you think its OK to get out on a traffic stop without being directed to? Its very bad juju. I go from condition orange to red and how I proceed from there depends on how the driver reacts to my very stern directions to get back into the vehicle.
public servant
Grandmaster
Do you think this would turn out better or worse than your last encounter with the police?
I think it was the last...it's hard to keep up anymore.
That one's not over with yet is it? I'd wait until that one is settled before I jumped into a new one...but that's just me.
This is an unfortunate incident. The officer made a terrible mistake. There are too many factors here to be too judgmental. If that video clip was resized only to the point of where the traffic stop was made, the man exits the vehicle, retrieves object from bed of truck, then the officer initially opening fire.... no dialogue.... no preconceived knowledge of the case or what happens after.... people may not have as biased of opinion. "KNOWING" that it is a cane before you watch the video already sets you up to know the officer messed up. I am a LEO in a different state than IN. I grew up in IN, but relocated for work. I am "the equivelant" of an Indiana Conservation Officer in the state that I reside. (not Indiana) So I do pull people over and do traffic stops as well as encounter people in the woods/on the water. Most everyone I meet is armed with knives and usually guns, but not all. Now, take the following comments to be perspective - not directly related to the video, but just in general.
As a LEO, we encounter people who are more likely to do harm to us as well as others on a regular basis. It would be nice to not have to wear my body armor and gun belt when I come to work because I "KNOW" that no one would allegedly do me harm. We all know that is not the case.
Anytime individuals have tried to "meet me halfway" and not let me get to where they are fishing/hunting/ or even on traffic stops - they are typically (not always - at least not that I could find - I could have missed it) hiding something. They can be polite and friendly and lie straight faced to you to avoid penalty. I for one, having been around guns a lot, and encountering a lot of people with guns (hunters/target shooters/personal carry/etc) come across as more relaxed when dealing with people than other officers of more traditional law enforcement may be. I am no less aware of my surroundings/lacking in officer safety - but im not gonna prone someone out in the woods who is squirrel hunting till I secure their rifle....that's absurd. That being said - I have had people "test my officer safety" if you want to word it that way. I handle things the way I deem appropriate and I do not condemn another officer who acted as he believed to be the correct course of action at the time. I was not there.
Someone made the comment about "If traffic stops are so dangerous then don't work by yourself".... nice wish.... there are times I have 2-3 counties by myself at night... I will respond to shots fired in the woods by myself - Odds are the guy is raccoon hunting - but he could have just shot someone for all I know. Closest backup is 30 minutes out. The officer has to use his judgment on what situations he may put himself in as well as how to handle them. People don't realize how many encounters we have every single day that go by smoothly. It takes a fraction of a percent of the incidents to go wrong and us become complacent and drop our safety because "the last 1000 traffic stops/encounters have gone by without any danger or someone trying to harm me...this one will be fine too." That is when things go bad. You never know if it will be bad. We plan for the worst and hope for the best. I am as polite and respectful to everyone I encounter, but I don't trust anyone I don't know.
I know the kinds of calls that come out everyday that regular citizens don't hear about. We had an officer in a different agency that works in the same state pull someone over recently for suspected DUI... suspect fled - shot at the officer (thankfully missed) he was tracked down and arrested without incident the following day. Do you think that officer expected to get involved in a shooting when he stopped that car?
One post stated "its a problem with training - etc". Okay sure lets evaluate training. You run through mock traffic stops at the academy / personal contacts with fishermen and hunters... one after another goes smoothly... the next thing you know... you take your eyes off the person to look at their ID to write a ticket/warning... glance up.. and the role player is pointing a fake gun at you. You just died in the scenario. That's ok... that's what training is for. You don't get "redo's" out on the road. I saw several recruits have incidents like this happening at training. You don't realize all of the information you have to take in and process that quickly. Yes we see the videos where officers lose their lives in the line of duty. There is only so much you can prevent. One thing you have to think about with training though, when you are in a mock scenario training - part of you still knows its training. Yeah you can get amped up and get the stress level to rise some, but its not the real deal. If you haven't read the book, I encourage everyone to read "On Combat" By: Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. It talks about the psychological and physiological response to stress and deadly encounters. You get a little more insight as to what the person is experiencing, but you don't know unless you are there. I fortunately have not had to use deadly force during my work. Hopefully I don't ever have to, but I train so that I can survive the event if needed.
Some posters have commented about the officer being a terrible shot. Not all police officers are expert shooters- we pass qualifications and show a basic competency with firearms as well as safe firearms handling. Some officers are OUTSTANDING shooters, they are the ones who take it upon themselves to train on their own. Some officers who can sit on the line and punch out the same ragged hole shot after shot, fall apart on instinctive shooting/shooting on the move/high stress when they can't/don't have time to use their sights. Similar to a real life situation. It is very easy to be the "Monday-Morning-QB" when you are not the ones having to make/live with the decision. Are there some crappy LEO's? Sure... I've met them and can't stand them either. A lot of us are genuinely trying to do good... and make the quality of life better where we live and serve our communities.
You would be shocked if you saw where people can store drugs/guns/weapons. It's not a glamorous job. Most people don't like us, unless they need us. Even then - we can't get there fast enough. I would love to have someone call in one day and say thanks for doing my job as oppose to being cussed out for finding where they hid what they didn't want me to find. It is what it is. Everyone has bad police encounters - I'm a cop and have had them before I was sworn for duty. I still cuss that cop when I think about it...lol. I just don't like people being so quick to judge on incidents that they really can't relate to. You are entitled to your opinion, but I hope you don't have to be the one sitting around reading all the comments people say about you someday on a situation where you didn't act appropriately in others OPINIONS.
I'm not saying this cop did the right thing. I'm saying if he TRULY believed that was a threat against his life, then he did the right thing based on his perception. Still a tragic mistake and he was wrong, but he didn't act out of malice or ill intent. Think about this - it would be harder on the person to be involved in a shooting KNOWING after the fact they they shot an innocent unarmed person by mistake than it would be to be involved in a shooting with someone who genuinely was trying to take your life. Both would be hard, but mistakes can be harder to live with. We don't always have the luxury of time to weigh options and second guess ourselves. Some are acting like cops are shooting innocent people on a regular basis and we think its ok, and we get away clean with whatever we want...I have no idea what you are talking about. If you can show me some statistic comparing the number of innocently shot citizens by cops vs the number of cops shot by citizens - I would gladly entertain that information.
Just the 2c of a "Fish Cop"
As a LEO, we encounter people who are more likely to do harm to us as well as others on a regular basis. It would be nice to not have to wear my body armor and gun belt when I come to work because I "KNOW" that no one would allegedly do me harm. We all know that is not the case.
Anytime individuals have tried to "meet me halfway" and not let me get to where they are fishing/hunting/ or even on traffic stops - they are typically (not always - at least not that I could find - I could have missed it) hiding something. They can be polite and friendly and lie straight faced to you to avoid penalty. I for one, having been around guns a lot, and encountering a lot of people with guns (hunters/target shooters/personal carry/etc) come across as more relaxed when dealing with people than other officers of more traditional law enforcement may be. I am no less aware of my surroundings/lacking in officer safety - but im not gonna prone someone out in the woods who is squirrel hunting till I secure their rifle....that's absurd. That being said - I have had people "test my officer safety" if you want to word it that way. I handle things the way I deem appropriate and I do not condemn another officer who acted as he believed to be the correct course of action at the time. I was not there.
Someone made the comment about "If traffic stops are so dangerous then don't work by yourself".... nice wish.... there are times I have 2-3 counties by myself at night... I will respond to shots fired in the woods by myself - Odds are the guy is raccoon hunting - but he could have just shot someone for all I know. Closest backup is 30 minutes out. The officer has to use his judgment on what situations he may put himself in as well as how to handle them. People don't realize how many encounters we have every single day that go by smoothly. It takes a fraction of a percent of the incidents to go wrong and us become complacent and drop our safety because "the last 1000 traffic stops/encounters have gone by without any danger or someone trying to harm me...this one will be fine too." That is when things go bad. You never know if it will be bad. We plan for the worst and hope for the best. I am as polite and respectful to everyone I encounter, but I don't trust anyone I don't know.
I know the kinds of calls that come out everyday that regular citizens don't hear about. We had an officer in a different agency that works in the same state pull someone over recently for suspected DUI... suspect fled - shot at the officer (thankfully missed) he was tracked down and arrested without incident the following day. Do you think that officer expected to get involved in a shooting when he stopped that car?
One post stated "its a problem with training - etc". Okay sure lets evaluate training. You run through mock traffic stops at the academy / personal contacts with fishermen and hunters... one after another goes smoothly... the next thing you know... you take your eyes off the person to look at their ID to write a ticket/warning... glance up.. and the role player is pointing a fake gun at you. You just died in the scenario. That's ok... that's what training is for. You don't get "redo's" out on the road. I saw several recruits have incidents like this happening at training. You don't realize all of the information you have to take in and process that quickly. Yes we see the videos where officers lose their lives in the line of duty. There is only so much you can prevent. One thing you have to think about with training though, when you are in a mock scenario training - part of you still knows its training. Yeah you can get amped up and get the stress level to rise some, but its not the real deal. If you haven't read the book, I encourage everyone to read "On Combat" By: Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. It talks about the psychological and physiological response to stress and deadly encounters. You get a little more insight as to what the person is experiencing, but you don't know unless you are there. I fortunately have not had to use deadly force during my work. Hopefully I don't ever have to, but I train so that I can survive the event if needed.
Some posters have commented about the officer being a terrible shot. Not all police officers are expert shooters- we pass qualifications and show a basic competency with firearms as well as safe firearms handling. Some officers are OUTSTANDING shooters, they are the ones who take it upon themselves to train on their own. Some officers who can sit on the line and punch out the same ragged hole shot after shot, fall apart on instinctive shooting/shooting on the move/high stress when they can't/don't have time to use their sights. Similar to a real life situation. It is very easy to be the "Monday-Morning-QB" when you are not the ones having to make/live with the decision. Are there some crappy LEO's? Sure... I've met them and can't stand them either. A lot of us are genuinely trying to do good... and make the quality of life better where we live and serve our communities.
You would be shocked if you saw where people can store drugs/guns/weapons. It's not a glamorous job. Most people don't like us, unless they need us. Even then - we can't get there fast enough. I would love to have someone call in one day and say thanks for doing my job as oppose to being cussed out for finding where they hid what they didn't want me to find. It is what it is. Everyone has bad police encounters - I'm a cop and have had them before I was sworn for duty. I still cuss that cop when I think about it...lol. I just don't like people being so quick to judge on incidents that they really can't relate to. You are entitled to your opinion, but I hope you don't have to be the one sitting around reading all the comments people say about you someday on a situation where you didn't act appropriately in others OPINIONS.
I'm not saying this cop did the right thing. I'm saying if he TRULY believed that was a threat against his life, then he did the right thing based on his perception. Still a tragic mistake and he was wrong, but he didn't act out of malice or ill intent. Think about this - it would be harder on the person to be involved in a shooting KNOWING after the fact they they shot an innocent unarmed person by mistake than it would be to be involved in a shooting with someone who genuinely was trying to take your life. Both would be hard, but mistakes can be harder to live with. We don't always have the luxury of time to weigh options and second guess ourselves. Some are acting like cops are shooting innocent people on a regular basis and we think its ok, and we get away clean with whatever we want...I have no idea what you are talking about. If you can show me some statistic comparing the number of innocently shot citizens by cops vs the number of cops shot by citizens - I would gladly entertain that information.
Just the 2c of a "Fish Cop"
CathyInBlue
Grandmaster
Depends… Better or worse for whom?
I give you 3/10 for question deflection.
It is my most fervent hope that when all is said and done, the police in Vigo County will be sufficiently educated that I would never have to put any possible answer to my serious question into practice.
Looked like a barrel to me. Flashing lights, kind of hard to know what it looked like to the officer, but it looked like a shotgun. Sucks, but I think it was a good shot. Had it actually have been a long gun, the story would be different...
public servant
Grandmaster
Don't expect an answer. They know there is a double standard and they love it. You don't get to react to weapons like the police do.
Why do you love strawmen arguments? Is it intentional?
Oh, they're learning something alright.
That's why pumping cops full of fear porn is a good way to get a lot of innocent people shot up. Its working.
Kutnupe, only 2 of your videos seemed relevant. The ones where the suspect appears outside his vehicle unarmed, and then actually retrieves his gun. These at least involved a period of decision-making on the part of the cop. I think that's what our discussion is supposed to be about.
It seems that you believe that because these people stood up out of their cars, and then later pulled a gun, that everyone who stands up is malicious, or that standing in a cop's presence is bad. It simply isn't true. The OP proves it. Some people stand up with completely friendly intentions. Which means the act of standing is not inappropriate. Pulling a gun is inappropriate.
The rest of the videos were all situations where the suspect literally dives out of his car firing, or immediately appears with a gun. There is no period of time when the cop had to wonder if this person is just another harmless Mr. Canipe. These are all off topic IMO.
It seems that you believe that because these people stood up out of their cars, and then later pulled a gun, that everyone who stands up is malicious, or that standing in a cop's presence is bad. It simply isn't true. The OP proves it. Some people stand up with completely friendly intentions. Which means the act of standing is not inappropriate. Pulling a gun is inappropriate.
The rest of the videos were all situations where the suspect literally dives out of his car firing, or immediately appears with a gun. There is no period of time when the cop had to wonder if this person is just another harmless Mr. Canipe. These are all off topic IMO.
Kirk Freeman
Grandmaster
You hate Liberty, rambone. I got it.
Now we see the true Paulian agenda inherent in the system of Paul--rights for some but not for others. Rights only for the Inner Party, those deemed Wookie enough.
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