Illegal Guns in Illinois Coming From Indiana

[Jubbie]

News article from the northwest corner. I do like the first comment made, which I'll quote after the article.

Indiana is a source state for guns

Illinois and Chicago maintain some stiff gun laws, but recently released federal statistics suggest a lot of guns seized last year by police in Illinois came from a source beyond the reach of those laws: Indiana.
The relationship seems intuitive, said Chicago-based Special Agent Thomas Ahern of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The states share a border, and Chicago contains no gun stores.
Ahern said it would be hard to deny the connection between what the ATF calls "source states" and weaker gun laws. Any gun that ends up pointed at a gas station clerk or tucked into a felon's pants could once be found on a store shelf, Ahern noted.
"All guns throughout the United States start out legal. Somewhere down the road, they become illegal," Ahern said.
The stats in question relate to guns traced to a source state by the ATF in 2008. The ATF traces guns at the request of local police agencies who recover the guns, but not all the guns were used in crimes and not all guns used in crimes are traced.
The stats show Indiana was, by far, the leading out-of-state supplier of guns recovered by police in Illinois in 2008, then traced by the ATF to a "source state," the last state in which the gun was legally sold. While Illinois was its own biggest source state, with 3,300 guns recovered in Illinois and traced to in-state sources in 2008, Indiana supplied 857 such guns to Illinois in 2008. Mississippi was the closest competitor, contributing 369 guns.
The import-export relationship is not balanced, according to the data. Illinois sources supplied 79 of the guns recovered and traced in Indiana in 2008. Kentucky and Ohio were both bigger suppliers to Indiana, according to the data.
The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence claimed in a news release that the data prove states with weaker gun laws fuel the illegal gun market, supplying "crime guns" to states with tougher laws. A Brady Campaign analysis ranked Indiana as one of the top five source states, and the gun control advocacy group considers Indiana's gun laws too lax. In Indiana, gun owners can be licensed to carry concealed guns and no background check is needed to buy weapons at a gun show. Illinois does not allow concealed guns, and gun owners are required to carry an identification card that is only issued after a background check.
Hammond-based U.S. Attorney David Capp, one of the region's most important gun enforcement officials, deferred comment on the Illinois-Indiana relationship to ATF agents because his assistant U.S. attorneys are prosecuting many federal gun cases.
It should not surprise anyone to learn there is no consensus on the issue between political parties.
State Rep. Charlie Brown, D-Gary, would like to tighten Indiana's gun laws. But Brown isn't optimistic that his pro-gun control views will spread in a state Legislature that also represents Indiana's vast rural expanses. Brown said rural pro-gun rights legislators "cannot appreciate the carnage that goes on in urban settings."
"I don't know if we can ever get out from under the power of the NRA," Brown said.
State Rep. Ed Soliday, R-Valparaiso, thinks Indiana's gun laws are "just fine." He noted that Chicago's gun ban has failed, profoundly, to prevent gun violence.
"People shoot people. Guns don't shoot people," Soliday said.
Dave Workman doesn't see the connection between source states and allegedly weak gun laws. He is a gun rights advocate and journalist who works for the Second Amendment Foundation, one of the groups that have challenged Chicago's handgun ban, a case the U.S. Supreme Court will hear next year. He suspects many guns pass through one or more illegal channels after they are legally bought and owned. People steal guns, and guns are bought illegally for criminals by clean buyers, Workman noted. He said groups such as the Brady Campaign want to manipulate data to spread "draconian" gun laws.
"We're not talking about legally licensed armed private citizens running around sticking up gas stations or baristas," Workman said.
"[Legislators] want to subordinate a fundamental civil right down to the realm of being a very highly regulated privilege."
There is curious common ground between Workman's view and the position of Dr. Gary Slutkin, the founder of CeaseFire Chicago, the oft-replicated anti-violence group. He doesn't see the guns in Chicago as the key problem. The problem, Slutkin believes, is the learned behavior of using violence to arbitrate problems. If the guns don't come from Indiana, they will flow from Wisconsin or Michigan, Slutkin said. It's not a supply issue, but a demand problem, Slutkin said.
Urban violence is a "humanitarian crisis," and gun control has not stopped the killing, Slutkin said. Only behavioral solutions such as those offered by CeaseFire -- including using former gang members as conflict mediators who build relationship with troubled youth -- will succeed, he said.
"We need to shift our thinking to what is actually working," he said.

Comment that I like, and wish I could take credit for.

randomjoe - First off, firearms are just like cars, dogs or anything else. if you misuse them or fail treat them with respect people can and will get hurt. drunk drivers commit crimes but we don't blame ford, chevrolet, dealerships or the law for it, it's the sole responsibility of that individual to obey the law and if they fail to they should be punished and if repeated exponentially harsher punishment should follow. with that being said the fact that those weapons came from indiana is only useful if its intent is propoganda. those guns could have been made in illinois shipped to georgia and sold, sold to someone in arizona, stolen and brought to indiana before being stolen by or sold to an illinois resident. who wouldn't have bought or stolen it if he/she was a law abiding citizen(if that particular firearm is illegal in illinois) and therefore should be punished by law. if it was bought legally from indiana than who cares. If stolen in illinois than it is the theif who should be punished(regardless of where the owner had it, safes can be broken into or stolen and locks can be broken). if lawmakers and officers had any sense of intellegence and overlooked their hatred of "evil firearms" they would realize their problem lay in a large population of criminals who were not and are not being punished harsh enough to make an impact(fact: most violent criminals are repeat offenders sometimes 10-30 times). Rather than making harsher gun laws, which are(plain as day) not sufficient, illinois along with the rest of the country should punish criminals and anyone who aids them harsher. if joe bob steals a handgun under current law or uses it in a minor crime he will not serve hard time and will not be swayed by his punishment. however if joe bob receives a 5-10 year sentence for stealing that handgun he will be less likely to repeat.(let's face it he's not stealing a handgun to hang on his wall, he is stealing it to sell, rob, injure or kill someone). now say joe bob gets done with his time and does it again, rather than 5-10 years he should be in longer regardless or for life depending on the caliber of the situation and at no point should the sentance cease to grow in length if the charge involves him handling a firearm. if these crimes were taken more seriously in the courtroom and atleast a moderate understanding of guns among people. we would not have as many crimes nor would we have kids shooting themselves on accidents because they weren't TAUGHT that guns are dangerous and/or how to use them in a safe and proper manner. inexposure creates a void of knowledge and a growing interest...

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[tenring]

Don's and Bradis are at the top of the list for where those came from.

 

[jedi]

In Indiana, gun owners can be licensed to carry concealed guns and no background check is needed to buy weapons at a gun show.

Wrong... Well OK 1/2 correct if you are talking about private sales.


BTW It was NOT jubbie that posted that but the The Times newspaper. LIARS!

 

[femurphy77]

If Chicago were closer to Wisconsin than Indiana then they'd be whining about the evil Wisconsin guns. People of Illinois; demand your legslatures honor the Constitution, if they don't bring in some who will, then Indiana guns won't be an issue. I'm curious how many of these guns that they confiscate are in the hands of true felons vs in the hands of people who are constitutionally able and had no record prior to being pulled over for the broken taillight?

 

[dburkhead]

If Daley would just keep his criminals on his side of the border then they wouldn't have this "problem."

You keep your criminals. We'll keep our guns. Thank you very much.

 

[spartan933]

Once again, the Brady Campaign focuses its efforts on the wrong thing. My view of criminals illegally using guns is that I would rather work on the issues that make a person need or want to live a life of crime. The Brady ladies would rather focus on removing the guns from the ghetto and leave the poor souls in squalor there.

I guess I am of the teach a man to fish versus giving him some fish method.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Illinois Pro 2A County by County Map

'Nuff said.

 

[valpoml]

Reading this first thing in the morning did nothing but make me angry as it shows that Dan Hinkel, the irresponsible journalist, does not know the gun laws in Indiana before writing his story. The article, on the front page, states that Indiana "allows concealed guns without license." I promptly sent an e-mail to Mr. Hinkle telling him to do his research and know the laws before being irresponsible in his reporting.

 

[gunbunnies]

I sent him a email too... pulling his whole article apart...

No truth in his journalism... that's for sure....

We need to flood this guys email box and blog page with rebutals... Let's do some typing gents.....

 

[rambone]

That link is eye opening. The problem is mainly Chicago.

 

[quiggly]

I know I know.... They need to pass a law that makes it illegal to own illegal guns that are purchased unlawfully in that Rat state Indiana, by criminals.

That will fix it.

 

[infidel]

I know I know.... They need to pass a law that makes it illegal to own illegal guns that are purchased unlawfully in that Rat state Indiana, by criminals.

That will fix it.

They need to make it SUPER illegal! Oh wait...

 

[mainjet]

After I read his article I sent him this email -

Dan,

In your article referenced above, you quoted the following line - "In Indiana, gun owners can be licensed to carry concealed guns and no background check is needed to buy weapons at a gun show"

However, this is completely untrue as shown by the Indiana Code, which I quoted below, and is very easily checked by anyone who cares to know the actual truth.


IC 35-47-1-3
"Dealer"
Sec. 3. "Dealer" means any person who holds himself out as a buyer and seller of handguns on a regular and continuing basis.


IC 35-47-2-16
Retail handgun dealer's license; restrictions; display; prohibited sales; gun show
Sec. 16. (a) A retail dealer's business shall be carried on only in the site designated in the license. A separate license shall be required for each separate retail outlet. Whenever a licensed dealer moves his place of business, he shall promptly notify the superintendent, who shall at once issue an amended license certificate valid for the balance of the license period. This subsection does not apply to sales at wholesale.
(b) The license, certified by the issuing authority, shall be displayed on the business premises in a prominent place where it can be seen easily by prospective customers.
(c) No handgun shall be sold:
(1) in violation of any provision of this chapter; or
(2) under any circumstances unless the purchaser is personally known to the seller or presents clear evidence of his identity.
(d) Notwithstanding subsection (a), a retail dealer may display, sell, or transfer handguns at a gun show in accordance with this chapter and federal law.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.191-1984, SEC.5; P.L.148-1987, SEC.5.



IC 35-47-2.5-4
Dealer requirements before sale, rent, trade, or transfer
Sec. 4. (a) A dealer may not sell, rent, trade, or transfer from the dealer's inventory a handgun to a person until the dealer has done all

of the following:
(1) Obtained from the prospective purchaser a completed and signed Form 4473 as specified in section 3 of this chapter.
(2) Contacted NICS:
(A) by telephone; or
(B) electronically;
to request a background check on the prospective purchaser.
(3) Received authorization from NICS to transfer the handgun to the prospective purchaser.
(b) The dealer shall record the NICS transaction number on Form 4473 and retain Form 4473 for auditing purposes.
As added by P.L.17-1997, SEC.8. Amended by P.L.190-2006, SEC.8.


I would ask that you print a correction to your article now that a serious and critical error of fact has been pointed out.

He replied promptly to my email with this -

Hello -

Thanks for reading and thanks for your feedback. We strive for accuracy and reader feedback is an important part of that equation.

We're working on a clarification on gun show laws.

Thanks.

Dan Hinkel​

 

[valpoml]

Just goes to show Mr. Hinkel's, and the TNWI complete ignorance of the laws prior to publishing this garbage. They also need to clarify that the license is not a conceal carry license, it is a license to carry, OC or CC.

 

[mainjet]

The story itself shows that the laws do not work. Illinois has what the Brady people would claim is tougher gun laws. However, as the story states - "Illinois was its own biggest source state, with 3,300 guns recovered in Illinois and traced to in-state sources in 2008, Indiana supplied 857 such guns to Illinois in 2008". Almost four times that of Indiana.

So I don't know what they are trying to say when saying that Indiana needs tougher laws. I agree with Dave Workman that it is not about the guns it's about the people that are stealing them and using them in other crimes.

Here's a real profound thought - when your a criminal laws really don't affect your bad behaviour that much....

The people that go to great pains to look at the Indiana constitution regarding guns are the law abiding citizen that does not want to break the law.

If the Brady people had the right thinking on this then they should also lobby the fire department to start trying to blow away the smoke when they see a house burning.

 

[GetA2J]

If Chicago were closer to Wisconsin than Indiana then they'd be whining about the evil Wisconsin guns. People of Illinois; demand your legslatures honor the Constitution, if they don't bring in some who will, then Indiana guns won't be an issue. I'm curious how many of these guns that they confiscate are in the hands of true felons vs in the hands of people who are constitutionally able and had no record prior to being pulled over for the broken taillight?

I don't think so. Wisconsin laws are more like Illinois than the rest of the nation.

Map courtesy of Handgunlaw.us

 

[indykid]

Does this mean that Illinois is Indiana's Mexico?

 

[gunbunnies]

Mr. Hinkel sent me back a email, and states that he was speaking of private sales at Gun Shows... I decided to give him a little more of my time and told him that there isn't any mention in his article about only private sales at gun shows don't get background checks... like 5% of Gun show sales... but anything you get from a dealer does require the check and no mention of that fact....

Waiting for another reply from this reporter....

Tell him we just want Truth in Journalism...

Sorry lies get under my skin...

Very surprised that he answered my email though...

 

[Jubbie]

Very surprised that he answered my email though...

I think he can tell you are armed and upset. He's just an anti so it's hard for him to understand how level headed we can all be. Even one of the comments on that story has someone saying, " Men and women become more aggressive when carrying." Plus, if you happened to sign your email with 'gunbunnies' he might be a little more disturbed. Maybe he read about newspaper employees having what street they live on put online.

 

[bigiron]

of course they dig to find anything they can to prove illinois and chicago gun laws "work". they have been lying for years and will continue to lie. sounds to me like mr. hinkel needs to uproot and move 4 or so miles to the west where he will be welcome to distort the truth. keep this garbage out of our state and has anyone written the editor? thats my next step is to rip this person apart for letting such garbage reach the public. i used to like the times but they are leaning way too far left lately. keep writing folks, lets make him wish he would have never started such an adventure!