Illinois Store Clerk Shoots, Kills Career Criminal

[IndyDave1776]

[video=youtube;Wz_DNrKVrQ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_DNrKVrQ8[/video]

 

[MCgrease08]

At what point does it become "fleeing"? If the robber turns 90* and runs towards the door, he's still 10ft away from you, inside the store, and armed.

That's when you say, "officer, as he started to run he turned his head back to look over his shoulder. It looked like he was repositioning to turn towards me. I was in fear for my life since he still had the gun in his hand."

 

[BugI02]

I don't think the robber was shot while fleeing. The customer fled. Clerk shot robber.

They story is clunky, but here's how I'm reading it. I rewrote so it makes more sense.

Exactly how I read it. THREE people; robber,clerk and customer. Customer fled, clerk drew and robber got lead poisoning.

 

[BugI02]

What can you explain to a jury?

"My first shot hit him in the shoulder, your honor. This spun him around and is why the other three were in his back"

 

[HHollow]

For those of you that do not approve of the shoot: The clerk also lied to the "customer".

"Jawad Samhan said his brother grabbed the store's gun from a hidden location after telling the robber that he was reaching toward a safe under the counter."

As a youngster I used to hang around the county sheriff's department because my mother was a dispatcher there. That old sheriff used to recommend dragging the body back in the house if the shooting occured while that bad guy was on his way out.

 

[Yup!]

I carry for self defense, not to prevent crime.

felony in progress, I'm taking cover.

point a gun at me, I'm defending myself as best as possible.

once the threat is over and I survive, I'm taking cover in anticipation of future conflicts.

the hardest part is determining the threat level in a matter of seconds. You've got to guess correctly, and reassess often!

 

[Liberty Sanders]

It is not necessarily prohibited to shoot a criminal who is fleeing. The SCOTUS case that sets the standard makes it dependent on the degree of danger being presented to the public at the time.

I believe that an armed criminal who is fleeing with a gun still in his hand meets the criteria.

 

[hopper68]

The clerk was just stopping the robber from harming the fleeing customer.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

That's when you say, "officer, as he started to run he turned his head back to look over his shoulder. It looked like he was repositioning to turn towards me. I was in fear for my life since he still had the gun in his hand."

That's when you say "officer, I cannot say anything else until I consult an attorney".

 

[oldpink]

For those of you that do not approve of the shoot: The clerk also lied to the "customer".

"Jawad Samhan said his brother grabbed the store's gun from a hidden location after telling the robber that he was reaching toward a safe under the counter."

As a youngster I used to hang around the county sheriff's department because my mother was a dispatcher there. That old sheriff used to recommend dragging the body back in the house if the shooting occured while that bad guy was on his way out.

Dragging a body anywhere is the sort of thing that's bound to make what would have been deemed a justified shoot into a felony because of evidence tampering.
Yes, they can definitely figure out shot angles, blood smears, and a multitude of other things that will make it clear that you tampered with a crime scene.
Don't even think about doing any such thing.

 

[actaeon277]

Dragging a body anywhere is the sort of thing that's bound to make what would have been deemed a justified shoot into a felony because of evidence tampering.
Yes, they can definitely figure out shot angles, blood smears, and a multitude of other things that will make it clear that you tampered with a crime scene.
Don't even think about doing any such thing.

And yet I've heard that advice hundreds of times.
I always ask the person how they'd vote if they were on a jury and the accused had been tampering with the scene.

 

[edwea]

Seems to me that the bottom line is this: he was there to rob the store. Had he gotten away, would he just rob another store down the line? Probably. If an armed intruder were in my house and suddenly got a change of heart once the shtf, season is still open as far as I'm concerned, no matter which direction he is facing or running!

 

[Woobie]

There's been some above average fail in this thread. Thanks oldpink for setting the record straight on dragging the body. This has to be some of the worst, yet most oft-repeated advice. The last thing you want to do, outside of get into a bad shoot, is to tamper with the evidence of a good shoot, thereby jeopardizing your position that the shoot was good.

If you guys are so cool with ending human life, then you may get a shock when you get your chance. The clerk in this story apparently was completely justified. He shot a guy who put a gun in his face, something we all would do. Yet his world is rocked right now. Did you read what his brother had to say? All this keyboard commando crap about killing thugs sounds great, but it's not the same when you're the one doing it. So to say you would shoot a guy that was running away from you (which was not the case here) then dream up some bs story for the cops is a crock. Your conscience won't be very kind, for one thing. But, even if you're a bit sociopathic and don't care, good luck getting a jury to buy it. If you really think he's about to kill you or someone else, go for it. But if you just want to shoot a thug in the back (no matter how much he deserves it), you're going to have some problems, one of which might be your comments in this thread when the prosecutor in your case gets ahold of them.

Edit: the one exception is inside my house. Unless you are running away and the only way to go is through the door, I'm still not giving you the chance to run into one of my kids' rooms.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Dragging a body anywhere is the sort of thing that's bound to make what would have been deemed a justified shoot into a felony because of evidence tampering.
Yes, they can definitely figure out shot angles, blood smears, and a multitude of other things that will make it clear that you tampered with a crime scene.
Don't even think about doing any such thing.

This may have been viable advice back when the police would have been happy to have some bad rubbish taken off their hands and would happily accept the scene they would prefer to see without much scrutiny. Unfortunately, this has gone the way of buying Mausers at the local hardware, cash and carry, for $29.95 to go with your $3.75 shovel.

 

[oldpink]

This may have been viable advice back when the police would have been happy to have some bad rubbish taken off their hands and would happily accept the scene they would prefer to see without much scrutiny. Unfortunately, this has gone the way of buying Mausers at the local hardware, cash and carry, for $29.95 to go with your $3.75 shovel.

Exactly my point.
Also, gambling that a jury would be perfectly okay with a clearly tampered crime doesn't sound exactly lucid.
Why do such a thing if by so doing, you compel the prosecutor to bring a case against you, where before he would have been happy to refuse to prosecute because you were deemed justified in your actions?
And, yes, probably none of us would hesitate to shoot someone threatening us or our families, but -- unless you are a true sociopath -- you're still bound to suffer some psychological fallout, however justified you were.
The only exception to that I can possibly think of would be if you were the guy who somehow picked off a particularly heinous criminal, serial killers or child rapists come most readily to mind.
Maybe for the likes of those, there would be a bit of satisfaction.

 

[edwea]

I think an interesting question that came out of this story (for me anyway), is when is a self defense situation considered "over"? Thug turned and running, out the door, off the property, etc. Bad guys come back later to finish what they started sometimes, so at what point are no longer in imminent danger?

 

[cobber]

Erm....

Greenwald was pointing a gun at the clerk AND a customer. As that customer fled, not greenwald, the clerk shot the greenwald four times.

Greenwald didn't flee, the customer did.

I was waiting for a native speaker of English to parse this correctly. Thank you.

 

[jon5212]

Jury Nullification those are my 2 cents.

 

[88E30M50]

The second link is much more clear. "The clerk fired at the masked man while the store customer fled, according to a Wauconda police news release. The masked man "fell to the ground," police said in the release."

 

[LCSOSgt11]

Another heartwarming story with a happy ending. The bad guy gets his just desserts. No court costs, no incarceration costs, no innocent folks hurt or worse, and a lesson taught and learned.