Indiana Historic Sites Carry Ban

[rich weyand]

Hi:

I searched the forums for this and didn't find anything, so please excuse me if this has been covered.

I visited the T.C. Steele Historic Site twice this week (we had a couple of sets of visitors this week), and I noticed a sign on the office wall (where you sign up for tours) saying "Absolutely No Weapons Allowed" or something like that, with the state seal and "State of Indiana" below it.

The sign by the road where you enter the property says "Department of Natural Resources", so I figured 312 IAC 8-2-3(a)(4) (carry handgun on DNR properties with LTCH or other state CCW) would apply. I asked about the sign, and the fellow said he would ask his boss about it.

When we went back a couple days later, the same fellow told me his boss said that the historic sites aren't under DNR any more, they are now under something called the "Indiana State Museum and Historic Sites Corporation", and that they could ban weapons at the historic sites.

I looked up the ISMHS, and found the enabling legislation, and found this:
IC 4-37-2-8
Transfer of rules; references
Sec. 8. (a) After June 30, 2011, rules that concern the division of
state museums and historic sites that were adopted by the natural
resources commission shall be treated as rules applying to the
corporation.
(b) After June 30, 2011, a reference to the department of natural
resources in a statute or rule concerning the division of state
museums and historic sites shall be treated as a reference to the
corporation.

I found no references to firearms in the ISMHS legislation that would provide authorization for a carry ban. So it looks to me like the DNR rules transfer to the ISMHS, and 312 IAC 8-2-3(a)(4) should still apply, and this ban is ultra vires.

I wrote an email to DNR asking abuot it. I also wrote an email to Mitch Daniels asking about it. I also asked State Rep. Matt Ubelhor to look into it. No answers yet from anybody, but all this just happened in the last couple days.

Anyone have any insight into this?

Rich

 

[eldirector]

Interesting... and I'm tagging for follow-up.

Thomas King, the President of the State Museum, still reports to the Executive Directory of the DNR (Bob Carter).

According to the IC you posted, this does appear to be its own entity, outside of the DNR. Yea! More bureaucracy!

 

[jbombelli]

Tagged for further information.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

 

[Hammer]

Seems like it is just a rule then, not a law. Just like the other No guns allowed signs posted by private business.
IANAL

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

 

[JimmyR]

From my reading, I think Hammer hit the nail on the head (pun very much intended).

If you read the entire section of the IC, it states that the State Museum and Historic Sites Corporation (SMHSC) is a "public body corporate" and "the corproation is seperate from the State" (IC 4-37-2-2 1 & 2b). As such, like any other corporation or individual, they may determine whether or not to allow firearms on their premeses.

IANAL, but I could see where this might be some legal grey area, kind of a "part of the state but not part of the state" kind of deal. I guess its to help get additonal funding to maintain the properties.

 

[eldirector]

From my reading, I think Hammer hit the nail on the head (pun very much intended).

If you read the entire section of the IC, it states that the State Museum and Historic Sites Corporation (SMHSC) is a "public body corporate" and "the corproation is seperate from the State" (IC 4-37-2-2 1 & 2b). As such, like any other corporation or individual, they may determine whether or not to allow firearms on their premeses.

IANAL, but I could see where this might be some legal grey area, kind of a "part of the state but not part of the state" kind of deal. I guess its to help get additonal funding to maintain the properties.

Actually, I'm leaning the other way. By IC, this is a "(1) a public body corporate and politic; and
(2) an instrumentality of the state.". That means they are either a State agency (and must follow the State's Administrative Code) or a Political Subdivision as per:

IC 3-5-2-38
"Political subdivision"
Sec. 38. "Political subdivision" means a county, city, town, township, school corporation, public library, local housing authority, fire protection district, public transportation corporation, local building authority, local hospital authority or corporation, local airport authority, special service district, special taxing district, or other type of local governmental corporate entity.

Either way, they cannot make their own rules on the fly. More importantly, if they are a "local governmental corporate entity", they can't regulate firearms AT ALL.

 

[Double T]

Actually, I'm leaning the other way. By IC, this is a "(1) a public body corporate and politic; and
(2) an instrumentality of the state.". That means they are either a State agency (and must follow the State's Administrative Code) or a Political Subdivision as per:


Either way, they cannot make their own rules on the fly. More importantly, if they are a "local governmental corporate entity", they can't regulate firearms AT ALL.

That is my understanding of it, but IANAL and IDNS@AHIELN.

 

[Pooty22]

That is my understanding of it, but IANAL and IDNS@AHIELN.

Wow I have no idea what any of those acronyms/initialisms mean

 

[eldirector]

I am not a lawyer, and I did not stay at a holiday inn express last night.

I'm such a nerd.

 

[jeremy]

Who wants to take a Field Trip with me...

I just need enough scratch to pay the house off, and to top off the Jeremy's Jeep needs fixed again fund (again)...

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I am not a lawyer, and I did not stay at a holiday inn express last night.

I'm such a nerd.

INAL, but IDS@AHIELN. So there.

 

[jedi]

 

[eldirector]

Who wants to take a Field Trip with me...
.

I suppose I could go to the State Museum, TC Steele, Angel Mounds, and Whitewater Canal AGAIN this summer.

 

[rich weyand]

I received a reply to my inquiry to the DNR.

--------

Mr. Weyand:
Thank you for visiting T.C. Steele State Historic Site and for your question concerning the weapons policy there. Your inquiry to the DNR has been forwarded to me. On July 1, 2011, the Indiana State Museum and Historic Sites Division of the DNR became the Indiana State Museum and Historic Sites Corporation (ISMHS), a "public body corporate and politic"--a separate instrumentality of the state (IC4-37-2-2). The historic site properties are still owned by the State of Indiana, but now managed by the new corporation. Rules directly relating to the former division and specifically referencing the Museum and Historic Sites division, such as 312 IAC 24, were transferred, along with all references in Indiana Code (IC) or Indiana Administrative Code (IAC) but again only if they specifically referenced the Museum and Historic Sites division, such as 312 IAC 9-2-11.

The Indiana State Museum building in Indianapolis is owned by the State of Indiana through the Indiana Department of Administration (IDOA) and the Indiana Finance Authority (IFA). They have significant oversight, along with ISMHS, into the management and security of the building. The eleven State Historic Sites are managed by the ISMHS in their entirety.

In 2006, the IDOA adopted the weapons policy to which you referred. Because of its oversight by IDOA/IFA the museum was considered part of the Indiana Government Center for security purposes and so fell under this policy. With the changeover to the ISMHS this policy was determined to be an appropriate way to deal with the weapons issue for all the property managed by the ISMHS, including the historic sites. This means one IDOA policy for all properties within the ISMHS.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask. Thanks again for your inquiry and your recent visit.

Bruce Beesley
Vice President for State Historic Sites
Indiana State Museum and Historic Sites

 

[henktermaat]

I received a reply to my inquiry to the DNR.

--------

Mr. Weyand:
Thank you for visiting T.C. Steele State Historic Site and for your question concerning the weapons policy there. Your inquiry to the DNR has been forwarded to me. On July 1, 2011, the Indiana State Museum and Historic Sites Division of the DNR became the Indiana State Museum and Historic Sites Corporation (ISMHS), a "public body corporate and politic"--a separate instrumentality of the state (IC4-37-2-2). The historic site properties are still owned by the State of Indiana, but now managed by the new corporation. Rules directly relating to the former division and specifically referencing the Museum and Historic Sites division, such as 312 IAC 24, were transferred, along with all references in Indiana Code (IC) or Indiana Administrative Code (IAC) but again only if they specifically referenced the Museum and Historic Sites division, such as 312 IAC 9-2-11.

The Indiana State Museum building in Indianapolis is owned by the State of Indiana through the Indiana Department of Administration (IDOA) and the Indiana Finance Authority (IFA). They have significant oversight, along with ISMHS, into the management and security of the building. The eleven State Historic Sites are managed by the ISMHS in their entirety.

In 2006, the IDOA adopted the weapons policy to which you referred. Because of its oversight by IDOA/IFA the museum was considered part of the Indiana Government Center for security purposes and so fell under this policy. With the changeover to the ISMHS this policy was determined to be an appropriate way to deal with the weapons issue for all the property managed by the ISMHS, including the historic sites. This means one IDOA policy for all properties within the ISMHS.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask. Thanks again for your inquiry and your recent visit.

Bruce Beesley
Vice President for State Historic Sites
Indiana State Museum and Historic Sites

Hmm. Did that clear it up for anyone else?

 

[SirRealism]

Hmm. Did that clear it up for anyone else?

Clear as mud.

 

[OEF5]

Yes, he's saying that in 2006 Indiana Department of Administration had a policy of no firearms on government property. Which is the case now since IDOA over sees all the Government center properties.

So when they made the change to the new governing body for the Historic Sites they adopted that rule.

If they really want to get technical they can post the State Police and the guards and the Metal detectors just like at the Government center.

 

[jedi]

What u guys can't read and understand?
The museums are considered part of the "Indiana Government Center" and as we all know "all animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others" so no carry of firearms there.

Actually it was a wonderful email reply to ensure that we now understand less than before and hopefully this will stop us from carrying there or figure out if what they are doing is "illegal" per the new state law.