INGOer Denied Carry Lawsuit in TN

[stephen87]

No, no and hell no. With the standard to detain the guy being reasonable suspicion and all the actions he took to make his behavior look as suspicious as possible, I'm hard pressed to find too much fault in the 6th Circuit's ruling, particularly when it appears he intentionally prolonged the stop.

Best,

Joe

This.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

I agree this is not the case we want heading to the Supreme Court next....

However, what reasonable suspicion existed?

It seems based on the provided account that lack of firearms knowledge on the part of law enforcement is what led to this detainment, and not "reasonable suspicion".

What was that quote... oh yeah! "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"

The officers suspicion was not reasonable - it was based on factually incorrect belief, and he used his power to detain an individual without the presence of a crime or any correct and valid reason to believe he was breaking the law or posed a threat.

What part of this is justifiable?

 

[rnmcguire]

What's a 30 round clip? I'm confused

 

[avengedXT]

Thing I'm seeing in the article that sticks out to me is the fact that he painted the tip of the barrel orange?

Is this fabricated information? I mean, why take that so lightly? I fear that one of these days this might be something you see younger teens looking to do wrong are going to do - start taping off and spraypainting the tips of real firearms blaze orange like seen on airsoft guns.

It's scary, because technically a street with teenagers playing airsoft isn't against the law (I COULD BE WRONG THERE. PLEASE tell me if I am)

And at the same time one of those teenagers can have a gun that looks the same as all the other airsoft guns in the group, yet it be real. How about we motion to ban freaking AIRSOFT GUNS? Hell, I've seen news reports where ATF has siezed stores with airsoft-exclusive merch claiming "they can be converted to fire live ammunition".

 

[LPMan59]

i see a lot of people commenting on the length of the detainment. according to the court, that was caused by the defendant and him alone.

this guy went trolling in real life and lost.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Thing I'm seeing in the article that sticks out to me is the fact that he painted the tip of the barrel orange?

Is this fabricated information? I mean, why take that so lightly? I fear that one of these days this might be something you see younger teens looking to do wrong are going to do - start taping off and spraypainting the tips of real firearms blaze orange like seen on airsoft guns.

It's scary, because technically a street with teenagers playing airsoft isn't against the law (I COULD BE WRONG THERE. PLEASE tell me if I am)

And at the same time one of those teenagers can have a gun that looks the same as all the other airsoft guns in the group, yet it be real. How about we motion to ban freaking AIRSOFT GUNS? Hell, I've seen news reports where ATF has siezed stores with airsoft-exclusive merch claiming "they can be converted to fire live ammunition".

Based on the first hand accounts of police friends, it already happens here in IN more than you might realize.

The orange tip discussion probably merits it's own thread - and I have to say doing that sounds pretty stupid to me, but as long as it isn't illegal *shrug*

The end result will likely not be criminals getting away with crimes - it will create the situation where police cannot trust that an orange tip means that a gun is a toy. This is the obvious end result of a poorly thought out remedy to a complex situation. Right now, many police already know that they cannot trust an orange tip - but they would be crucified if they are in a shooting and it turns out the gun is a toy - because most people do not realize this is already happening. Possibly damned if they do, possibly damned if they don't, and we need to find a better solution to the issue.

In some jurisdictions, you can get arrested for firing airsoft guns in city limits. http://www.gazette.com/articles/sportsman-61055-air-unaware.html

 

[avengedXT]

Based on the first hand accounts of police friends, it already happens here in IN more than you might realize.

The orange tip discussion probably merits it's own thread - and I have to say doing that sounds pretty stupid to me, but as long as it isn't illegal *shrug*

The end result will likely not be criminals getting away with crimes - it will create the situation where police cannot trust that an orange tip means that a gun is a toy. This is the obvious end result of a poorly thought out remedy to a complex situation. Right now, many police already know that they cannot trust an orange tip - but they would be crucified if they are in a shooting and it turns out the gun is a toy - because most people do not realize this is already happening.

In some jurisdictions, you can get arrested for firing airsoft guns in city limits. Parents, kids may be unaware of laws against air-gun use | sportsman, air, unaware - Top Stories - Colorado Springs Gazette, CO

Oh I do believe it already happens, I haven't personally seen it before but I absolutely believe it does.

Way I see it, if an idiot like me can think of it, there's people out there twice as bright as myself that can too. Highlighted final comment in your post: it almost seems ridiculous but I can kind of see why - basing off recent discussion

 

[zebov]

I guess my question is, where does the burden of proof lie, and does this court's opinion change that in any way? Are officer's allowed to assume all firearms are illegal until they are convinced otherwise, or are they to assume the firearm is legal unless they have an reasonable suspicion otherwise based on specific and articulable facts? As long as this opinion supports the latter, I'm okay with it (though the wording itself is demonstrably anti-2A).

The concern comes if this ruling leads to the ability of an officer to stop any person carrying any firearm to check if it is legal or not.

 

[DC47374]

I agree with the brief. I mean is it unreasonable to suspect an AK-47, which is converted into a handgun version, which also happens to have the tip painted orange, as a legal hand gun? The guy got what he was looking for. I'm all for gun rights, but it doesn't progress our cause to do such as he did. Clearly he was looking to cause a reaction, and succeeded.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

I mean is it unreasonable to suspect an AK-47, which is converted into a handgun version, which also happens to have the tip painted orange, as a legal hand gun?

Well, first - Dracos are not converted to handguns, they are produced as handguns. The ATF recognizes this - and it is not a gray area, but black and white. I assume you probably meant converted as in that specific variant derives from an AK47 pattern rifle - and I am not trying to correct you, but I just wanted to throw that in since "converted" can mean so many different things to different people. It is a legal firearm that came from the factory and was imported as is - minus the goofy orange paint or whatever he put on it.

Yes, simply seeing a Draco alone would not merit a justifiable search. If he was waving it around, was unable to control his muzzle, or if they had any articulable reason to suspect that he was a threat - then they have a reason to intervene.

Without the presence of a REASONABLE suspicion, a search is not merited.

The incorrect belief that a firearm is illegal based solely on lack of firearm knowledge is not reasonable suspicion. It is a suspicion, but it is not reasonable - since the law clearly states otherwise.

The perception that a firearm is "more dangerous" or "more evil" than another does not indicate a reasonable suspicion.

The fact that a man is carrying a firearm does not merit reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

Possession of an AK47 does not merit a search.

What if you were detained at the range because your ak47 just "cannot be legal" in the eyes of an officer? Would his suspicion be a justifiable reason for a search, since he incorrectly believes it to be illegal? What if this happened to you more than once, should legal recourse be denied?

What about my Draco - does recreational shooting at the range merit a search if an officer is ignorant of the law? If I decided to carry it, would that be a justifiable reason to detain me, based on it being an "evil ak" variant?

What if an officer mistakenly believes carrying is not legal? Would that justify performing a "felony take down" - disarming and detaining you? Should legal recourse exist if this happens to you? Should ignorance of the law grant immunity to legal recourse?

They could have permitted the suit, and if it had no merit - he would have lost. Why do you think they do not want this case heard?

 

[cobber]

IncendiaryGunner;3264572
They could have permitted the suit, and if it had no merit - he would have lost. Why do you think they do not want this case heard?

They clearly stated they do not want to open RS stops up to civil rights suit. That is a holding of general applicability to all RS stops, but anyone OC in the 6th Circuit is now on notice which side the bread is buttered on.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I'm aware of that.

It doesn't make stopping him any more reasonable. Stopping every car to see if the driver is licensed is unreasonable. Stopping everyone with a gun to see if they have a license is basically a perfect analogy, because it requires the same presumption--that if someone is doing something that requires a license, that unless and until that fact is verified, that they do not have the license and thus it is "reasonable" to stop them and determine if they do.

My view is that it is not a reasonable presumption to assume that everyone who is carrying a gun is unlicensed in a shall issue state where any law abiding citizen can get a license.

And when you finish law school, get either elected or appointed to a bench, eventually get nominated and confirmed to the SCOTUS, your view will matter in such things. FWIW, I agree with you that the situations are identical and further, that even requiring the license is an unConstitutional infringement... But my opinion doesn't matter either. Whattayagonnado?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

They clearly stated they do not want to open RS stops up to civil rights suit. That is a holding of general applicability to all RS stops, but anyone OC in the 6th Circuit is now on notice which side the bread is buttered on.

Hrm.. the linked document seems to argue that no fourth amendment violation occurred because reasonable suspicion existed.

Am I looking at a different document, or am I just glazing over that part layman like?

 

[cobber]

Hrm.. the linked document seems to argue that no fourth amendment violation occurred because reasonable suspicion existed.

Am I looking at a different document, or am I just glazing over that part layman like?

For instance:

On this record, an officer could reasonably suspect
something was amiss.
The scope of Ward’s investigation also was reasonably related to the
circumstances that justified the stop.

The court found the officers' actions were reasonable. The Fourth protects you against "unreasonable" searches.

Under other facts, the court might have gone the other way, but our little buddy in Tennessee set it up for the court to hit out of the park.

 

[Compuvette]

Hrm.. the linked document seems to argue that no fourth amendment violation occurred because reasonable suspicion existed.

Am I looking at a different document, or am I just glazing over that part layman like?

No, I saw that too.

IMHO, I personally think the stop was OK. I've seen the police warning emails about the orange tips. Apparently it's a big gang thing to paint the muzzle orange to look like an airsoft. To me there were enough little things this guy did that I don't have a big problem with him being stopped. The delay was his request also as he wanted a supervisor there. I believe that once his legal status was determined he should have been free to go of course. But as others said, he went looking for trouble and found it. You can't hit a hornets nest with a stick and not expect a reaction.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

For instance:



The court found the officers' actions were reasonable. The Fourth protects you against "unreasonable" searches.

Under other facts, the court might have gone the other way, but our little buddy in Tennessee set it up for the court to hit out of the park.

That is pretty scary... If they do not know the gun is legal, you can be detain without recourse....

I sure am glad Franklin police are not that jumpy, or I would spend half my time sprawled out on the sidewalk.

I mean, that could be a Glock 18... It is possibly full auto, so we better check that one out...

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

For instance:



The court found the officers' actions were reasonable. The Fourth protects you against "unreasonable" searches.

Under other facts, the court might have gone the other way, but our little buddy in Tennessee set it up for the court to hit out of the park.

Good point. If he'd been walking around in casual slacks, button down shirt, with his daughter, wife, and Labrador retriever, same gun (sans orange tip) would the events have transpired as they did? We'll never know now but I'm thinking-'no'.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

The orange tip, as stupid as it is, kind of leads me to believe that he was not attempting to provoke an encounter.

Who attempts to disguise a firearm as a toy if their end goal is provoking a law enforcement response?

If he was stupid enough to believe he could pass it off as an airsoft..... ???????

 

[DC47374]

The suit was permitted and had already come to a conclusion. That is why there is a brief filed. This was an appeal. The appellate court looked at the facts of the case and concurred with the lower court, thus issued this brief. It is how all such appeals are handled.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Maybe it is time to move to Russia, where they can carry AK47's without incident...