Interesting Legal Advice

[MilitaryArms]

This site caters to lawyers but I found this article on how to defend a Self Defense Case quite interesting. It's a great read for all of us who carry for self defense. It will give you some insight into the legal ramifications of actually having to use your weapon in a self defense scenario.

Defending the Self-Defense Case

 

[UltraRick]

A good read. Thanks

 

[troycowan]

very good article, thanks! im gonna print it out and take it to my friends

 

[IndyMonkey]

Tag for later

 

[jedi]

From the article...

The client denies responsibility for the crime or claims it was an accident. (This is especially important if the client has given the police a statement in which he or she tries to minimize the offense by agreeing with the interrogator that it was an accident or denies responsibility for the crime2.)

& thus we you DO NOT talk to the police period. You talk to legal consuel (LC) and allow LC to talk for you.

Ideally, the client will also have some formal training in the use of deadly force which will allow the client’s teacher to testify about the client’s training in order to show that the client’s actions were subjectively reasonable

&

This automatic reaction is one reason why it is important to find out whether the client has had any self-defense training and talk to the client’s trainer.

Get YOURSELF some training!!!

 

[IndyMonkey]

Great read

 

[Indiana_Dave]

Indiana law?

The article contains some good points, but be advised that it was not written specifically with Indiana laws in mind.

 

[MilitaryArms]

The article contains some good points, but be advised that it was not written specifically with Indiana laws in mind.

Good point Dave, but it's also important to note that this article was written in such a voice that it's applicable to most states.

 

[MilitaryArms]

From the article...

& thus we you DO NOT talk to the police period. You talk to legal consuel (LC) and allow LC to talk for you.

You know what? This is the BIGGEST mistake people make. You feel you're justified in your actions, you're scared, you want the police to believe you acted in self defense so you ramble on thinking they're on your side.

The truth is, they aren't on your side. They are on the side of trying to lay blame if they can. A hotshot local DA may want to make a name for himself and everything you utter to police will likely be captured in their report. As such, you can unknowingly say something that will put you in a bad legal situation.

The golden rule is: SHUT UP! You don't have to say anything. Thus, don't say anything. Be polite and tell the officers that you would like to speak with counsel before making a statement. They may try to intimiate you, or they may even inadvertently get you to comment on the events by appearing to be friendly or sympathetic. Don't screw yourself, just smile as best as you can, assure them you're not trying to be confrontational or difficult, but you would like to speak with counsel before saying anything.

Most of us are good people by nature and we hate thinking that someone might look at us as being guilty of a crime. We tend to ramble on trying to justify our actions. This will get you into deep poop in such a situation.

 

[JDonhardt]

Excellent article

 

[LCSOSgt11]

Folks:

The police will find the facts out. We just had a situation where someone made a self defense claim (a domestic dispute homicide type situation). He has been incarcerated for approximately forty-eight hours, and maybe many more, depending on the crime scene results.

If you mistrust the police, then don't carry a firearm or use it in your defense. I certainly can understand and recognize why one would not talk with the police following a deadly force encounter. However, until you do, you may have some alternate housing in a "structured environment." That is, until the facts are determined. One may ask "why would I be detained?" The answer: In a deadly force encounter where someone dies, that is considered a homicide. Homicide by definition is the killing of a human being by another human being.

Homicides are generally ruled thusly:
1. Accidental
2. Justifiable
3. Non justifiable

If determined accidental, no criminal responsibility attaches. If determined justifiable, no criminal responsibility attaches. If non justifiable, then hang on, we've just jumped onto the Murder/Manslaughter merry go round. Also, I am not mentioning any potential civil liability which is a whole other discussion.

I have been protecting people's rights for the past 28 years. I still do so today. I'm not trying to "sell" the position of the police, however, some folks have a misbegotten impression that the police are the jackbooted thugs. For those of you that don't know....we aren't.

I know, I know, some of the folks here for their own reasons don't trust the police. Fine. However, it seems in my experience that even the most jaded individual may need police assistance at one time or another. All I ask is that we not be judged on the whole as adversaries. If someone violates the law, then there are lumps coming. If someone acted lawfully in defending themselves, then the facts will bear that out. I would bet that most of the folks subscribing to this site have not been involved in a deadly force situation. We are brought up to respect human life and not take another's. Thank God for that, otherwise there might be a whole lot more room on this planet. Deadly force encounters will change folks' lives, sometimes not for the better. Am I the expert? No. Am I an attorney? No. However, I do have some experience in the real world, not theory.

Remember, the police are some of the folks (like firemen and emergency medical personnel) that are trained to RUN TO disaster, rather than RUN AWAY from it. Please give us some credit for having some experience in dealing with these type situations.

Oh, and for jediagh, any statement taken in this type investigation will come from your mouth, not your attorney's. When is the last time you saw an attorney on a witness stand?
And, if for some reason, God forbid that you are charged criminally and your lawyer suggests that "you take the stand", fire him/her immediately.

 

[MilitaryArms]

I trust police, just not with my freedom. A good friend of my is a detective, and I would talk to him about a self defense shooting if he were investigating it. But I have absolutely NOTHING to gain by talking without legal counsel first but I have EVERYTHING to lose.

It has nothing to do with trust and everything to do with common sense. A LEO will tell you "hey, trust me! I'm here to help!" and a lawyer will tell you "don't say a word without talking to me first". The difference is the lawyer has your best interest in mind while the LEO doesn't. Even if the LEO does, how about the local DA? Maybe he's anti-gun and looking to make an example of someone. I'm not willing to take that bet.

LEO's are skeptical, with good reason, and tend to treat people as criminals first and law abiding citizens second. That's an unfortunate side effect of the job given they deal with the drakes of society on a regular basis. That's not to say all LEO's are jaded, but do you really want to gamble your freedom on trusting a stranger that has the power to ruin your life? I don't.

I'll sit in jail for a night until my lawyer has a chance to get me out. That's a very small price to pay for being smart about my freedom.

 

[AndersonIN]

Have posted before but can never hurt to remind other that might not have seen!

Part 1
YouTube - Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1

Part 2
YouTube - Dont Talk to Police

 

[MilitaryArms]

Have posted before but can never hurt to remind other that might not have seen!

Part 1
YouTube - Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1

Part 2
YouTube - Dont Talk to Police

Thank you. You can't argue with that. Unfortunately LCSOSgt11's comments fly in the face of sound legal advice. I've yet to find an attorney who would tell a client it's ok to give a statement to police before talking with counsel.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

Full-Auto:

Since I'm not an attorney, I'm not presenting legal advice. I'm presenting what happens in the real world. If anyone thinks that they are going to walk away from a deadly force encounter with a "I'm going to talk with my attorney now, I'll get a hold of you later" way of thinking, they are totally wrong.

I can almost guarantee that there will be a trip to the police station, where you can certainly contact your lawyer. However, it will be up to your attorney when they will show up. I hope you have a real fine and dandy relationship with that attorney.

In my posts, I present again a "real world" type perspective. You can certainly choose to agree or not to agree. I'm just trying to save someone a rude awakening when all may not go to plan so to speak as according to many of the posts presented.

Of course, then again, who am I? By all means, get the "best" attorney you can. I hope you get your money's worth, as these type situations will mean a lot, not only what is at stake (the client's potential freedom), but the legal fees as well. Just remember, the attorney that graduates "last" in his law class and still passes the Bar exam is still an attorney.

Just because I can write somewhat complex sentences (containing more than three or four words) and formulate somewhat complex thoughts, does not mean that I am presenting "legal advice." A neophyte to this site may think that all LEO's are out to jam someone up for something they did not do. I'll be the pariah in this case and state this: If someone is truthful and above board with me, they will be treated likewise. If someone wants to play a game and lie to me, so be it. The game will be played by my rules. The liar loses. They usually always do, unless they're politicians, who know no better.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Full-Auto:

Since I'm not an attorney, I'm not presenting legal advice. I'm presenting what happens in the real world. If anyone thinks that they are going to walk away from a deadly force encounter with a "I'm going to talk with my attorney now, I'll get a hold of you later" way of thinking, they are totally wrong.

I can't tell you're not an attorney, more likely a LEO hence your really bad legal advice.

Can you please show me where I suggested I would say "I'll get a hold of you later" and pretended I would walk away? You can't because I made no such suggestion. However, I did say spending a night in jail waiting for legal counsel was something I would be fine with. A night in jail vs. a life time in prison (or worse)? I'll take the night in jail for being smart about my situation.

Let's pretend for a moment I elected to give a statement at the scene, are you guaranteeing I wouldn't get carted off to jail? I think not. Watch the videos linked to above and learn something about sound legal advice coming from brilliant legal minds including the SCOTUS and past AG's.

In short, they tell you "do not under any circumstances talk to the police without counsel". I'll take their advice over a LEO's any day of the week. Heck, I've had a local sheriff tell me that open carry was illegal in Indiana and my permit in my pocket said as much. When I presented my permit and read it to him, he said "they must have changed them". In other words, many LEO's have no idea what the law is... and I would be ill advised to take legal advice from anyone other than a criminal defense lawyer.

I can almost guarantee that there will be a trip to the police station, where you can certainly contact your lawyer. However, it will be up to your attorney when they will show up. I hope you have a real fine and dandy relationship with that attorney.

Dandy relationship or not, I'll take my freedom over life in prison. All the bad legal advice in the world won't change the fact you're better off in the long run not making a statement until you've gotten legal counsel.

In my posts, I present again a "real world" type perspective. You can certainly choose to agree or not to agree. I'm just trying to save someone a rude awakening when all may not go to plan so to speak as according to many of the posts presented.

The rude awakening you're setting the ill advised up for is potentially a long drawn out fight in the courts for their very freedom. Your advice is no more "real world" than the advice of the law professor in the videos above. If you value your freedom, do not talk to the police until you've sought legal counsel, period.

Of course, then again, who am I? By all means, get the "best" attorney you can. I hope you get your money's worth, as these type situations will mean a lot, not only what is at stake (the client's potential freedom), but the legal fees as well. Just remember, the attorney that graduates "last" in his law class and still passes the Bar exam is still an attorney.

So our advice is to ignore the advice of 99.99% of the lawyers out there and go ahead and make a statement to police because you might get a last in class lawyer? Here's the clincher, the worst lawyer in the world has more legal standing than you do, a non-lawyer.

No matter what, after you pull the trigger there's a good chance you will need a lawyer. You seem to suggest that all of your problems will magically go away and you won't rack up expensive legal defense bills if you just talk to police. That's an exceptionally naive and down right false pretense to make.

Watch the video. You stand to gain absolutely NOTHING by talking to police. Your words can not be used to defend you, but everything you say will be used against you in court. That's a legal fact you can't deny. Everything you say only serves to harm your position there is absolutely nothing you can say to better your situation. Your defense attorney can not call the police officer and ask them to testify for you (based on your statements) and present evidence that will help your case. It's called "hearsay" and the processioning attorney will have it thrown out assuming a judge is at sleep at the bench and even allows it to happen in the first place.

Just because I can write somewhat complex sentences (containing more than three or four words) and formulate somewhat complex thoughts, does not mean that I am presenting "legal advice." Nor does it mean that I'm a "unibrow" knuckle dragging Neanderthal idiot police officer either. Not every police officer you encounter has a room temperature IQ. Of course, if you were a police officer, you would already know that....

I have no idea where this comes from, I made no suggestion whatsoever that you were a "unibrow" or "knuckle dragging". That's what is called a strawman argument. You're pretending I'm calling you stupid and trying to use that false pretense to somehow better your standing in the debate. It's a pointless endeavor. The discussion would be considerably more productive if you didn't play such games.

Please, watch the videos and then we can continue the debate. If you can't spend a few minutes listening to a legal professor about this very issue, then we really have nothing left to discuss as your position is completely compromised.

 

[bigiron]

Full-Auto:

Since I'm not an attorney, I'm not presenting legal advice. I'm presenting what happens in the real world. If anyone thinks that they are going to walk away from a deadly force encounter with a "I'm going to talk with my attorney now, I'll get a hold of you later" way of thinking, they are totally wrong.

I can almost guarantee that there will be a trip to the police station, where you can certainly contact your lawyer. However, it will be up to your attorney when they will show up. I hope you have a real fine and dandy relationship with that attorney.

In my posts, I present again a "real world" type perspective. You can certainly choose to agree or not to agree. I'm just trying to save someone a rude awakening when all may not go to plan so to speak as according to many of the posts presented.

Of course, then again, who am I? By all means, get the "best" attorney you can. I hope you get your money's worth, as these type situations will mean a lot, not only what is at stake (the client's potential freedom), but the legal fees as well. Just remember, the attorney that graduates "last" in his law class and still passes the Bar exam is still an attorney.

Just because I can write somewhat complex sentences (containing more than three or four words) and formulate somewhat complex thoughts, does not mean that I am presenting "legal advice." A neophyte to this site may think that all LEO's are out to jam someone up for something they did not do. I'll be the pariah in this case and state this: If someone is truthful and above board with me, they will be treated likewise. If someone wants to play a game and lie to me, so be it. The game will be played by my rules. The liar loses. They usually always do, unless they're politicians, who know no better.

i'll be honest with you LCSOsgt11, your remarks here almost imply that guilty is evident in any self-defense shooting situation until the shooter is proven innocent. telling us that the "l'll get ahold of you later" approach will only land us in jail. last i checked i could withhold my comments until represented by an attorney. i understand the law and the law enforcers job, however, you stated a very true fact in an earlier post. you said the LEOs will find the facts. yep, thats your job, find facts and preserve evidence, not assume guilty or innocenct, in fact our constitution guarantees our innocence until proven otherwise by a jury. that being said, all of us would understand spending a night in the clink in any shooting situation. i think this is sound advice given by full-auto. hes not saying be a jackass and give the investigators a hard time, hes mearly bringing to our attention how our story in a stressful situation can land us in a heap of trouble, whether the LEOs on the case want us there or not. this is no disrespect to an officer, trust me i used to be one, but i wouldn't talk to my best friend who is LEO here in town in this situation. sometimes you can unintentionally give up info that could be used against you either in criminal or civil court. sometimes having a scumbag lawyer will save your skin. with all due respect, i won't give info to an officer during a traffic stop. i will give him my license, reg., and insurance but thats all he needs to gather facts and thats the same you would need on a crime scene, FACTS, not statements from a nervous and scared person who could have been on the other end of this dreadful shooting. be safe!

 

[LCSOSgt11]

Ok, Ok, since you folks are the legal experts, take your own advice. Apparently you know a whole lot more about the law than I do.

I would certainly agree that you probably should speak with a criminal defense attorney should you have the unfortunate circumstance of being involved in a deadly force confrontation.

I also fervently hope that he/she graduated at the top of their class, and had the highest score on the Indiana Bar exam. You will certainly need their advice.

Good Luck. Full-Auto, you are correct, this has been a pointless endeavor.

 

[jbombelli]

Ok, Ok, since you folks are the legal experts, take your own advice. Apparently you know a whole lot more about the law than I do.

I would certainly agree that you probably should speak with a criminal defense attorney should you have the unfortunate circumstance of being involved in a deadly force confrontation.

I also fervently hope that he/she graduated at the top of their class, and had the highest score on the Indiana Bar exam. You will certainly need their advice.

Good Luck. Full-Auto, you are correct, this has been a pointless endeavor.

I like your condescending, know-it-all attitude.

I flat guarantee my lawyer (yes, I already have one) is better trained in the law and its nuances than YOU are. No offense. Just so you know, my lawyer has ALREADY told me to NEVER make statements without him there, to never answer questions without him there, and to NEVER consent to a search of my person, home, effects or vehicle. Period. Under any circumstances. Except of course for a Terry frisk. And guess what? He used to be a cop, too.

When the police are talking to someone after a potential crime has been committed, they are looking for facts, sure, but they're ALSO looking to see how those facts can be stacked against the person they're talking to. That person is a SUSPECT until they clear him.

When someone has been through a self-defense homicide, they are going to be an absolute wreck, and anything they say can be used against them. A lot of police officers ask seemingly benign questions, which aren't really so benign when you think about them, and understand where they're coming from. They're designed to extract information that can be used against *SOMEBODY*, and oftentimes that somebody is the person they're interrogating.

The police do not have to tell the truth when they're questioning somebody. They are free to lie about the reasons they're asking questions, they're free to lie about the evidence they have, they're free to lie about the strength of their case, and they will do all they can to elicit a confession of some sort.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't play that game with the police. You want to ask me questions? Feel free. But I won't answer a thing until my lawyer is present. I'm smarter than that.

If you don't like that, that's just too damned bad.

I flat guarantee that's a better course of action than just answering every question thrown at you when you're an emotional wreck, and can hardly even think straight.

 

[bigiron]

Ok, Ok, since you folks are the legal experts, take your own advice. Apparently you know a whole lot more about the law than I do.

I would certainly agree that you probably should speak with a criminal defense attorney should you have the unfortunate circumstance of being involved in a deadly force confrontation.

I also fervently hope that he/she graduated at the top of their class, and had the highest score on the Indiana Bar exam. You will certainly need their advice.

Good Luck. Full-Auto, you are correct, this has been a pointless endeavor.

wow, i'm suprised someone in the law enforcement field would have such a glass jaw! relax skippy, its an internet discussion. i'm not saying you're wrong in anything you have said and i don't think full-auto did either. but, given our grievious civilian status, we have to use whatever measures we can to defend ourselves. i would also like to mention that more than one of our own brothers in arms have been strung out to dry by a prosecutor before for defending themselves. this isn't an "us against them" discussion, just a CYA discussion that i feel applies to both LEO and public joe. sorry to have stepped on the toes of your freshly shined duty boots. again, be safe! jeff