Is 'waterboarding' a form of torture?

[rambone]

Question I have is, are you willing to have the Constitution, The Bill of Rights, and every other document we hold "dear" shoved down your neck AFTER your head is cut off just to say "I upheld the principles of our nation"?

How many of our forefathers have bleed and died for that document? Liberty is an idea that cannot die unless you kill it yourself. Are we really so scared of terrorists that we would sacrifice the Bill of Rights?

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course other INGO members may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

At that point alot of good those documents will do you. The road to hell (and in this case) slavery/possible defeat are paved with good intentions.

I don't think for one moment that America can fall and be enslaved to some external invading force. The only way we'll be enslaved is by our own damned government. If we sell out our own constitution and allow the Feds to do anything they want with no limits, then we'll be very assuredly on the road to Hell.

IMO we cannot afford the luxury of believing we live in a puppy dog unicorn world, AND have the luxury of being or thinking we're the "good guy" all the time. We live in a VERY dangerous world and some only understand the overwhelming use of force. Anything else to them is a sign of weakness, and will be used against their enemy.

When someone is trying to behead you, you use self-defense via the 2nd Amendment. Its a position grounded solidly in reality. No unicorns necessary.

I think the unicorns start flying when people start believing that the U.S. Government has their best interests at heart, and they start believing that the Feds won't abuse these powers they were never supposed to have.

On what basis are you asking if it is torture? Your's, mine, or the Geneva Convention?

The U.S. Constitution will suffice. 8th Amendment.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. ​

 

[E5RANGER375]

Maybe this is why so many of them hate us as much as they do. Some of them would hate us regardless, but many of them would probably think of us as a far off, technologically advanced land that has no impact on their existence or reality.

I dont want our troops over there anyways. As far as im concerned now that bin laden is dead we have hunted down and killed probly 90% of the original terrorist that were in afghanistan when bin laden planned and executed 9/11. Now we need to focus on securing our borders and let our allies secure their own countries. but as long as we are still over there lets stop worrying about butt hurting some terrorist! **** them up and let them know if they come to the U.S. it will be on like donkey kong!

 

[Garb]

I dont want our troops over there anyways. As far as im concerned now that bin laden is dead we have hunted down and killed probly 90% of the original terrorist that were in afghanistan when bin laden planned and executed 9/11. Now we need to focus on securing our borders and let our allies secure their own countries. but as long as we are still over there lets stop worrying about butt hurting some terrorist! **** them up and let them know if they come to the U.S. it will be on like donkey kong!

I couldn't care less if they're butt hurt or not. This debate isn't about that at all.

 

[firehawk1]

Maybe this is why so many of them hate us as much as they do. Some of them would hate us regardless, but many of them would probably think of us as a far off, technologically advanced land that has no impact on their existence or reality.

Understand, I am NOT directing this towards you personally,

While we're not perfect by ANY means, the United States of America has done more to HELP humanity that any other nation in history. I guess that's a little know fact nowadays since the media constantly spews the hate America/we're the evil in the world crap.

I guess if they would feel we have no impact on their existance or reality then they wouldn't miss the BILLIONS of dollars of aid we so generously give away every year to them.

I'll bet most of the people around the world that actually hate the U.S. have not idea WHY they hate us. Most have been TAUGHT to hate us by religious lunitics.

 

[Garb]

Understand, I am NOT directing this towards you personally,

While we're not perfect by ANY means, the United States of America has done more to HELP humanity that any other nation in history. I guess that's a little know fact nowadays since the media constantly spews the hate America/we're the evil in the world crap.

I guess if they would feel we have no impact on their existance or reality then they wouldn't miss the BILLIONS of dollars of aid we so generously give away every year to them.

I'll bet most of the people around the world that actually hate the U.S. have not idea WHY they hate us. Most have been TAUGHT to hate us by religious lunitics.

I agree with most of what you've said, especially the last sentence. That's all beside the point though. The point is that us being there in the first place and bombing them and shooting at them gives them more reasons to hate us. The people that already hated us said "See? We were right about those snotty Americans!" As for foreign aid, it should all be cut off immediately. The role of the U.S. is not to save the world. If this war were about protecting U.S. citizens, we would have come home a long time ago.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I agree with most of what you've said, especially the last sentence. That's all beside the point though. The point is that us being there in the first place and bombing them and shooting at them gives them more reasons to hate us. The people that already hated us said "See? We were right about those snotty Americans!" As for foreign aid, it should all be cut off immediately. The role of the U.S. is not to save the world. If this war were about protecting U.S. citizens, we would have come home a long time ago.

good, i hope they hate us. i want them to hate me as much as i hate them. i agree, to end all foreign aid. let them bastards starve to death.

 

[malern28us]

In as much as most terrorist groups are taught to hate us for being an American, I feel we should give them something to hate us for. Waterboard the hell out of them.

 

[Garb]

good, i hope they hate us. i want them to hate me as much as i hate them. i agree, to end all foreign aid. let them bastards starve to death.

Why do you hope they hate us? Again, I couldn't care less. I'm more worried that they're looking to us for protection and/or aid. It's not like Europe doesn't already lol.

 

[firehawk1]

How many of our forefathers have bleed and died for that document? Liberty is an idea that cannot die unless you kill it yourself. Are we really so scared of terrorists that we would sacrifice the Bill of Rights?

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course other INGO members may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!



I don't think for one moment that America can fall and be enslaved to some external invading force. The only way we'll be enslaved is by our own damned government. If we sell out our own constitution and allow the Feds to do anything they want with no limits, then we'll be very assuredly on the road to Hell.



When someone is trying to behead you, you use self-defense via the 2nd Amendment. Its a position grounded solidly in reality. No unicorns necessary.

I think the unicorns start flying when people start believing that the U.S. Government has their best interests at heart, and they start believing that the Feds won't abuse these powers they were never supposed to have.



The U.S. Constitution will suffice. 8th Amendment.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. ​

1. Protecting your country and it's citizens from harm has nothing to do with being scared. They would have shot Arnold if the 'founders" had got their hands on him. Kinda cruel huh? War is hell and you MUST be willing to do whatever is necessary on the battle field to insure the nation survives. If you don't/aren't what's the point of even trying?


2. And the terrorists we are now fighting would not put you in chains? Probably not, they would behead you.

3. I really don't even know how to respond to this but, when our economy collapses we will no longer be able to field a military able to defend us. We will/could be taken without much of a fight. This can/could be done with nukes brought into our country by these lunitics. Nuke the heartland and we can no longer feed ourselves. We will be reduced to importing our food supply, and no longer be able to afford a strong military capable of defending ourselves. That's just one example.

4. Can't argue this point with you. I agree but you have to have enough citizens willing to do this. At this stage of the game I'm not sure we do.

5. I never stated the "govenment" has my best intentions at heart. I agree with you ALOT on what our government is doing HERE, but I will not fault them for doing whatever is necessary to protect me, my family, you from worthless pieces of human debris like we are facing now. I guess it comes down to, I could give a s**t whether some lunitic terrorist is made uncomfortable to gain information to do that.

Guess you wouldn't vote for me for President huh?

 

[Kutnupe14]

No, but even if it were, I couldn't care less.

Would your opinion be changed if the terrorist was American?

 

[96firephoenix]

is holding someone's head underwater torture? waterboarding has a similar effect feeling-wise to being held underwater.

 

[NYFelon]

Would your opinion be changed if the terrorist was American?

I can't speak for him, but I can for myself. In a word, yes. The Constitution, while recognizing the fundamental rights of all men, guarantees them only to Americans, natural or naturalized. However, and someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm fairly certain that if you join a foreign military in the cause to take up arms against the United States, you have renunciated your US citizenship by law.

 

[Garb]

is holding someone's head underwater torture? waterboarding has a similar effect feeling-wise to being held underwater.

It depends. Is it against their will?

 

[Expat]

I have seen waterboarding and I saw the video of Daniel Pearl having his head sawed off. I do not think waterboarding is torture nor do I really care.

 

[firehawk1]

Would your opinion be changed if the terrorist was American?

If you are refering to Anwar Awlaki, no. He is a traitor to his country and should be treated as such. If I was Panetta... oops I mean Obama, (Freudian slip) THIS would be the next one on my list. Then it would be the lunatic Egyptian doctor, whatever his name is.

I would tell them all, "you can run but you'll only die tired".

 

[NYFelon]

Ayman al Zawahiri I believe is the anglicanism of it.

 

[firehawk1]

Ayman al Zawahiri I believe is the anglicanism of it.

Yes, that's the I was refering to. Thanks.

 

[Kutnupe14]

If you are refering to Anwar Awlaki, no. He is a traitor to his country and should be treated as such. If I was Panetta... oops I mean Obama, (Freudian slip) THIS would be the next one on my list. Then it would be the lunatic Egyptian doctor, whatever his name is.

I would tell them all, "you can run but you'll only die tired".

and Timothy McVeigh?

 

[Suprtek]

Is water-boarding torture? Don't care.

Are there situations where it should be used? Absofrigginlutely! Under the right circumstances, I would have no problem whatsoever doing much worse than that.

Coming up with the rules to determine exactly when it should and shouldn't be used is where the debate is for me. But that's a different discussion.

 

[firehawk1]

and Timothy McVeigh?

Is everyone here that commits a crime a terrorist? IMO no. That fact that he was 'labeled" a terrorist was just media sensationalism. McVeigh was just a nutjob with a grudge against the U.S. Government who commited a TERRIBLE crime. To equate McVeigh to the terrorists we are fighting in the Middle East is wrong IMO.

Besides, he recieved what some would call cruel and unusual punishment for his crime. Nothing more than what Osama got is it? Both were killed dead! Besides, there was no reason to have to waterboard or whatever him. He was too stupid to cover his tracks. Didn't take much to make a case against him.