"It's Boeing, and the Union's Going"

[jblomenberg16]

I'll say it again...most people think that fortune 500 companies are moving jobs out of the US only because of labor unions and labor prices. That is simply not true. It is certainly a factor, but what is driving it more than anything is the global market. Many of the countries jobs are going to (India, SE Asia, etc.) have some very archaic import duties that simply make foreign built product non-competitive. The only choice is to manufacture with local labor. Once that is set up, you now have a realtively low cost global manufacturing footprint that you can then use to export back into the USA.

 

[MisterChester]

What in the wide world of sports are you talking about? We have the highest corporate tax rate in the free world. That - and our relatively high cost of labor - are the reasons we're losing our industrial base and manufacturing businesses to overseas flight.

Look at BBI's previous post about tax rates. What the rate is, and what they actually pay, are two totally different things. Our industrial economy has sunk over the past few decades because it's cheaper to ship the jobs overseas. What happens to countries that "grow" but don't produce actual, physical goods? America is the lab rat here, and the outlook isn't too bright.

 

[MisterChester]

He has no clue what he's talking about; he only knows what the DNC tells him to say.

So I disagree with the GOP, and that makes me a DNC talking head? Did the GOP tell you to say that?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Look at BBI's previous post about tax rates. What the rate is, and what they actually pay, are two totally different things. Our industrial economy has sunk over the past few decades because it's cheaper to ship the jobs overseas. What happens to countries that "grow" but don't produce actual, physical goods? America is the lab rat here, and the outlook isn't too bright.

Obviously we must lower tax rates for corporations. Since so many major corporations are paying 0% now, that simply means we'll have to pay them to be here.

Wages? Well, sorry to tell you folks but union workers aren't the only ones "overpaid" in the global market. You want a really free labor market, then you can't support blocking the free flow of labor. That US citizenship and passport you were born with the right to no longer make you special. There's an Indian or Bangladeshi who will do whatever you do today for 1/3 of what you make to do it. Keeping him from coming here, or the job going there, is anti-free market.

Minimum wage in Bangladesh, $68/month: Is Bangladesh's new minimum wage enough? | Ethical Trading Initiative

Good luck competing on taxes and wages.

 

[MisterChester]

Obviously we must lower tax rates for corporations. Since so many major corporations are paying 0% now, that simply means we'll have to pay them to be here.

Wages? Well, sorry to tell you folks but union workers aren't the only ones "overpaid" in the global market. You want a really free labor market, then you can't support blocking the free flow of labor. That US citizenship and passport you were born with the right to no longer make you special. There's an Indian or Bangladeshi who will do whatever you do today for 1/3 of what you make to do it. Keeping him from coming here, or the job going there, is anti-free market.

Minimum wage in Bangladesh, $68/month: Is Bangladesh's new minimum wage enough? | Ethical Trading Initiative

Good luck competing on taxes and wages.

What happens when these countries become more westernized, and start asking for comparable wages and benefits? I am of the belief that if companies paid based on the actual value of labor instead of "hey you're someone in SE Asia, so we can pay you less" then any incentive to hire people abroad is gone.

 

[oldpink]

I wonder if it ever occurred to the wizards going on about those "evil" corporations paying no tax that earnings made overseas cannot be taxed here.
Likewise, one wonders if those same companies might put their manufacturing back here if the corporate tax rate weren't the highest in the world?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I wonder if it ever occurred to the wizards going on about those "evil" corporations paying no tax that earnings made overseas cannot be taxed here.
Likewise, one wonders if those same companies might put their manufacturing back here if the corporate tax rate weren't the highest in the world?

So those companies that paid 0% taxes made no earnings in the US?

I'll sit and wait while you back up that GE made no money in the US.

 

[indyblue]

I'd bring that one up to your Union rep...sounds like the man is keeping you and me down! I have to spread it around too!

I've had good and bad experiences with Unions.

.....

Just remember, an organized union at the highest level is not too much different than the NRA or other organization, which collects a nominal annual membership fee to help collectively represent its membership base.

Except the NRA doesn't compel anyone to pay their membership fee. You either want to join or not, and once joined there's nothing forcing to you to contribute more or continue to be a member (by paying annual membership fee).

 

[rhino]

Labor unions suck.
Political parties suck.

 

[jamil]

Look at BBI's previous post about tax rates. What the rate is, and what they actually pay, are two totally different things. Our industrial economy has sunk over the past few decades because it's cheaper to ship the jobs overseas. What happens to countries that "grow" but don't produce actual, physical goods? America is the lab rat here, and the outlook isn't too bright.

I agree with this, but especially the bolded part. It's not just labor that makes making stuff here more expensive. People here want cheap **** from walmart, but no one here is willing to allow stuff to be made here cheaply. We need environmental protections, wage protections, liability protections, and on, and on, and on. And all that adds cost. If other countries are willing to make it there without all that, why wouldn't companies move manufacturing there?

Obviously we must lower tax rates for corporations. Since so many major corporations are paying 0% now, that simply means we'll have to pay them to be here.

Wages? Well, sorry to tell you folks but union workers aren't the only ones "overpaid" in the global market. You want a really free labor market, then you can't support blocking the free flow of labor. That US citizenship and passport you were born with the right to no longer make you special. There's an Indian or Bangladeshi who will do whatever you do today for 1/3 of what you make to do it. Keeping him from coming here, or the job going there, is anti-free market.

Minimum wage in Bangladesh, $68/month: Is Bangladesh's new minimum wage enough? | Ethical Trading Initiative

Good luck competing on taxes and wages.

There is a significant cost to making **** other than just the cost of labor. You've made that point arguing in favor of a living wage. But that argument can work against you as well. An American worker is not competing directly with a worker in Bangladesh. It's much more systematic than that. As I suggested above, if there is a competition, it's the whole cost of making it here vs the whole cost of making it there. The cost of labor is just one term in that equation. Tax is another. Regulation is another. Import. Productivity. Environmental impact. And so on.

What happens when these countries become more westernized, and start asking for comparable wages and benefits? I am of the belief that if companies paid based on the actual value of labor instead of "hey you're someone in SE Asia, so we can pay you less" then any incentive to hire people abroad is gone.

I kind of agree with this. And not only with wages, but as some of these countries become "westernized" they will be less willing to make cheap **** in their back yards. I quoted "westernized" because they don't necessarily have to become westernized to have and want higher standards of living. But as they do, they'll be less willing to have a Union Carbide plant just down the road.

So those companies that paid 0% taxes made no earnings in the US?

I'll sit and wait while you back up that GE made no money in the US.

GE has very good accountants. At the end of the tax season, if their deductions and credits mean they pay no taxes, that's just the way it works. I try to find every deduction and credit that's available to me. I wish I had more. But none of that is relevant to this discussion. Just worth mentioning.

As far as the tax code having impact on US jobs, the large global corporations that can get those large tax break represent a fairly low chunk of the US labor market. A lot of medium sized companies that do have to consider corporate taxes make up a larger share of US employers. I'm not saying that taxes are the reason companies build **** elsewhere. But that the cost of taxes is only insignificant to a relatively small number of corporations that make stuff in other countries and import back to the US.

 

[jamil]

Except the NRA doesn't compel anyone to pay their membership fee. You either want to join or not, and once joined there's nothing forcing to you to contribute more or continue to be a member (by paying annual membership fee).

Well there is the peer pressure.

 

[rhino]

GE has very good accountants. At the end of the tax season, if their deductions and credits mean they pay no taxes, that's just the way it works. I try to find every deduction and credit that's available to me. I wish I had more. But none of that is relevant to this discussion. Just worth mentioning.

With respect to GE specifically, a huge chunk of their tax liability in recent years was absorbed by their wind farms and the associated tax credits that made them possible.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

There is a significant cost to making **** other than just the cost of labor. You've made that point arguing in favor of a living wage. But that argument can work against you as well. An American worker is not competing directly with a worker in Bangladesh. It's much more systematic than that. As I suggested above, if there is a competition, it's the whole cost of making it here vs the whole cost of making it there. The cost of labor is just one term in that equation. Tax is another. Regulation is another. Import. Productivity. Environmental impact. And so on.

Remember what thread we are in, and what I was addressing.

What in the wide world of sports are you talking about? We have the highest corporate tax rate in the free world. That - and our relatively high cost of labor - are the reasons we're losing our industrial base and manufacturing businesses to overseas flight.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

With respect to GE specifically, a huge chunk of their tax liability in recent years was absorbed by their wind farms and the associated tax credits that made them possible.

For their own good, we should cut out the corporate welfare. We all know how only lazy corporations need such things, and how it teaches them to be dependent upon the government.

Criminals shouldn't be on the welfare dole, either.

I mean, its not like GE hasn't been caught defrauding the government on defense contracts for decades.
GE Fined $1 Million, Faces Three-Year Pentagon Ban : Admits to Fraud on Missile Job - latimes
Ge To Pay $30 Million In Fines, Penalties - philly-archives
GE Pleads Guilty to Fraud in Arms Deal : Defense: The company will pay a $69-million penalty in the sale of jet engines to Israel. - latimes
#438 GE pays $7.1 million to settle fraud suit
#012: 01-10-97 - General Electric Pays U.S. $950,000 to Settle Claim for Testing Fraud

Or civilians.
CFPB Orders GE Capital to Pay $225 Million in Consumer Relief for Deceptive and Discriminatory Credit Card Practices > Newsroom > Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2009/2009-178.htm
General Electric Agrees to $3.5 Million Civil Penalty, Internal Compliance Program for Failure to Report Defective Ranges and Dishwashers | CPSC.gov



In full disclosure, I like GE. They provided a good living for my maternal grandparents, including a comfortable pension and medical in retirement. GE is the second most valuable single stock holding in my own retirement portfolio. Its just one I happen to know more about. I'm just pointing this out because itsfFunny how differently its looked at when its a corporation-person instead of a person-person not "paying their share" and being a repeat offender sucking at the gov't teat.

 

[jamil]

With respect to GE specifically, a huge chunk of their tax liability in recent years was absorbed by their wind farms and the associated tax credits that made them possible.

As well, during the credit bust GE Capital absorbed huge losses, which ended up as big write offs. I don't blame companies for taking whatever tax breaks they can get. I'd bet even BBI takes all the tax breaks he can get.

Tax breaks in themselves aren't corporate welfare any more than deducting the taxes I pay in another state is individual welfare, or the tax break I get for homeschooling. Tax breaks become corporate welfare when corporations are subsidized through tax code. The wind farm thing is an example. That is corporate welfare and it should stop.

Remember what thread we are in, and what I was addressing.

Now hold on, I'm not trying to get all up in your ****. I know where I am. You said,

There's an Indian or Bangladeshi who will do whatever you do today for 1/3 of what you make to do it. Keeping him from coming here, or the job going there, is anti-free market.

And I'm just saying, no, the competition involved isn't just what the competitors are willing to work for. There's a total cost, which is what I thought was BH's point. I wouldn't put taxes as far up on that list as he does, but it's not insignificant either.

And, I was really quite astonished you used all that as an argument. I didn't see where BH wants to pass laws to specifically prevent those people from participating in the market. It's more like trying to make the playing field more level. Reducing hurdles in the US that make other countries more viable isn't limiting the free market.

For their own good, we should cut out the corporate welfare. We all know how only lazy corporations need such things, and how it teaches them to be dependent upon the government.

Criminals shouldn't be on the welfare dole, either.

I mean, its not like GE hasn't been caught defrauding the government on defense contracts for decades.
GE Fined $1 Million, Faces Three-Year Pentagon Ban : Admits to Fraud on Missile Job - latimes
Ge To Pay $30 Million In Fines, Penalties - philly-archives
GE Pleads Guilty to Fraud in Arms Deal : Defense: The company will pay a $69-million penalty in the sale of jet engines to Israel. - latimes
#438 GE pays $7.1 million to settle fraud suit
#012: 01-10-97 - General Electric Pays U.S. $950,000 to Settle Claim for Testing Fraud

Or civilians.
CFPB Orders GE Capital to Pay $225 Million in Consumer Relief for Deceptive and Discriminatory Credit Card Practices > Newsroom > Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2009/2009-178.htm
General Electric Agrees to $3.5 Million Civil Penalty, Internal Compliance Program for Failure to Report Defective Ranges and Dishwashers | CPSC.gov



In full disclosure, I like GE. They provided a good living for my maternal grandparents, including a comfortable pension and medical in retirement. GE is the second most valuable single stock holding in my own retirement portfolio. Its just one I happen to know more about. I'm just pointing this out because itsfFunny how differently its looked at when its a corporation-person instead of a person-person not "paying their share" and being a repeat offender sucking at the gov't teat.

Yeah, I'm not a fan. Not because they treated me wrong when I was an employee. They were a great employer for the most part. I don't like the corporate welfare, nor the influence they wield on government. And then there's the propensity to bend or break the rules. And I'm very pissed that I can't get a ****ing 60W incandescent light bulb anymore.

And as for the gov't teat, is anyone here advocating corporate welfare? Please point them out. I'll join the pile on.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Does anyone remember what a new car (domestic or foreign) cost in 1971? My Datsun 1200 sedan cost $1800; a new Datsun 240Z cost @ $4000; a new Corvette cost $7000. All of those cars had seat belts, front head rests, and darn little other "safety equipment." I'm not sure what the National Traffic Safety stats were for traffic fatalities in 1971, and I wonder if they're much different in 2014 (or the last year we had stats). Yes, I know "inflation," but consider all the other "environmental & safety features" that we have mandated on today's new cars, and how they simultaneously affect "safety" and "the environment" and how much they've added to the costs of buying a new car (or an air conditioner, or a refrigerator or . . . ). Are we getting our money's worth?

 

[jblomenberg16]

This will blow your minds...my employer recently chose to EXPAND manufacturing jobs in Indiana, at not one, but two of our plants. One of the plants was in competition with three other locations. The Indiana location was best. Best work force, best business environment, and best position to support the global market. And its even a union shop. Oh the noes!

 

[Dosproduction]

Here is food for thought and the bigger picture. All inflation is caused by the Federal Reserve. When they print money prices of things go up. Objects, commodities, labor, and anything else that is bought with the dollar. The only people who benefit from inflation are the people who get the money first and also the ones who get paid to print it IE Federal Reserve. You can argue NAFT, Bailouts, Unions, Low Corporate Taxes, Politicians, Derivatives, Speculators, and anything else but the bottom line is till we get the printing of money (inflation) under control we will be divided and arguing forever. The Federal Reserve creates all the chaos in the free market through inflation and all the issues we are talking about. Political corruption would end if the politicians had to raise taxes every time they did a friend a favor instead of deficit spending. People would pay attention if they saw there checks being stolen at a 90% rate. But since people can not see inflation and do not understand it they have to blame something on rising prices and unfair tax systems. Who do they blame EACH OTHER because that is who the Federal Reserve and puppet politicians want them to blame. With out business there would be no jobs. With out labor there would be no workers. With out the Federal Reserve there would be prosperity. With out Politicians there would be freedom.

 

[jamil]

Here is food for thought and the bigger picture. All inflation is caused by the Federal Reserve. When they print money prices of things go up. Objects, commodities, labor, and anything else that is bought with the dollar. The only people who benefit from inflation are the people who get the money first and also the ones who get paid to print it IE Federal Reserve. You can argue NAFT, Bailouts, Unions, Low Corporate Taxes, Politicians, Derivatives, Speculators, and anything else but the bottom line is till we get the printing of money (inflation) under control we will be divided and arguing forever. The Federal Reserve creates all the chaos in the free market through inflation and all the issues we are talking about. Political corruption would end if the politicians had to raise taxes every time they did a friend a favor instead of deficit spending. People would pay attention if they saw there checks being stolen at a 90% rate. But since people can not see inflation and do not understand it they have to blame something on rising prices and unfair tax systems. Who do they blame EACH OTHER because that is who the Federal Reserve and puppet politicians want them to blame. With out business there would be no jobs. With out labor there would be no workers. With out the Federal Reserve there would be prosperity. With out Politicians there would be freedom.

You lost me at "all".

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Here is food for thought and the bigger picture. All inflation is caused by the Federal Reserve. When they print money prices of things go up. Objects, commodities, labor, and anything else that is bought with the dollar. The only people who benefit from inflation are the people who get the money first and also the ones who get paid to print it IE Federal Reserve. You can argue NAFT, Bailouts, Unions, Low Corporate Taxes, Politicians, Derivatives, Speculators, and anything else but the bottom line is till we get the printing of money (inflation) under control we will be divided and arguing forever. The Federal Reserve creates all the chaos in the free market through inflation and all the issues we are talking about. Political corruption would end if the politicians had to raise taxes every time they did a friend a favor instead of deficit spending. People would pay attention if they saw there checks being stolen at a 90% rate. But since people can not see inflation and do not understand it they have to blame something on rising prices and unfair tax systems. Who do they blame EACH OTHER because that is who the Federal Reserve and puppet politicians want them to blame. With out business there would be no jobs. With out labor there would be no workers. With out the Federal Reserve there would be prosperity. With out Politicians there would be freedom.

Don't kid yourself, if it weren't politicians, there would just be some other category of human trying to take your freedoms. How about judges? And bureaucrats - they may live in a political environment, but most of them aren't "Politicians".