Justified Shooting reference FAQ/Q&A. (Shoot or Don't Shoot) Self defense, IN.

[Kirk Freeman]

Whew...I thought you were going to go with the "Chewbacca Defense."

There have been several trials where I really needed it. Sometimes it is hard to keep your heart in the fight when your client has 17 grams of crack cocaine in his underwear and tells the police "these are my brother's underwear."

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

There have been several trials where I really needed it. Sometimes it is hard to keep your heart in the fight when your client has 17 grams of crack cocaine in his underwear and tells the police "these are my brother's underwear."

The "it's just a crystal" defense doesn't work in such cases?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The "it's just a crystal" defense doesn't work in such cases?

Marijuana residue in a pipe? That works just fine. (Heck, one jury even gave me a pass on an entire cigarette).

30-some crack rocks in your underwear? Doesn't not work so well.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Marijuana residue in a pipe? That works just fine. (Heck, one jury even gave me a pass on an entire cigarette).

30-some crack rocks in your underwear? Doesn't not work so well.

So many people hate liberty so...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

So many people hate liberty so...

They hate lame excuses AND liberty.

 

[indiucky]

Sometimes it is hard to keep your heart in the fight when your client has 17 grams of crack cocaine in his underwear and tells the police "these are my brother's underwear."

Tyrone Biggums is a real person??????I thought he was just a character Dave Chappelle made up...Wow...

[video=youtube;wREjE5tc3_k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wREjE5tc3_k[/video]

 

[Informed Decision]

Ok so this thread is NOT based on Indiana law yet many of the posts are... My question is about theft of property. I take it ,I can use my weapon to assist me stopping theft of my property as I say " Sir please put my weed eater back in my truck" , But I can not pull the trigger unless I'm attacked? If the good gentleman doesn't return the weed eater AND decides to run ... I'm supposed to wave at him & head to the store to replace that weed eater ? So no way a variation of Castle doctrine can't work with your truck on a public street?

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Hey everyone!

What is considered to be a threat?

The use of an object or weapon in a dangerous or deadly manner. This is usually in the act of causing death or serious bodily harm. When i mention threat, it means your life or someone else's is on the line and could die or serious injury to the body.

What is serious bodily harm?

This is the act of paralyzing someone, serious permanent disfigurement, unconsciousness, extreme pain, and loss of a fetus.

Do not shoot him in the back! This is never legal! This is considered involuntary manslaughter. The suspect is trying to escape or evade you. Do not give chase, just call 911 and secure yourself in a locked room until the police arrive. Let the dispatch know you have a firearm, where your at in the house, and info about the suspect.

I get into a fist fight and I shoot the guy. Will I get in trouble?

Most likely you will be charged with involuntary manslaughter. The only exemption to this is if the other person pulls out a weapon to escalate the situation(knife,gun,etc.) or you are on the ground, the suspect on top hitting you, and you are to the point of NEAR death. This would most likely be a justified shooting. Near death though is key. Not a black eye or a swell mark or two. We are talking a lot of punches being thrown to the point where the person hitting you escalated the situation from battery to aggravated battery with a deadly weapon. Your fist can be considered a deadly weapon. Also, if a scuffle erupts and the suspect tries to grab your gun, you can shoot him,however, ONLY if he tries to recover your firearm. Key Point: you can NOT be the original aggressor to the situation. Starting a fight and then shooting someone down the road will get you being bars in jail. Its complicated to explain how to re-gain self-defense if you are the original aggressor. Just don't start the fight as the bad guy because you lose your self-defense rights during the situation.

A clerk is being robbed at gun point at the gas station inside. I have a shot at the suspect, Can I shoot?

Yes, you can shoot,but a lot of explanation will be behind it. If you truly believe the clerk was going to die or seriously hurt, you can shoot. My advice is if you can order the perk to surrender do it, but if not, do what you have to do. The third party a.k.a (The Clerk) life is at risk.

Can I draw my firearm to de-escalate a situation?

Yes you may, but to an extent. The crime has to life threatening to cause death or serious bodily injury. I wouldn't suggest drawing your firearm to stop a fist fight. However, I would suggest drawing it if someone pulls out a knife or deadly weapon. The key here is the situation and what weapons are being used. Another good example would be drawing your firearm to a mugging/robbery with just the use of their fists against the third party(victim). I would draw down and order the suspects to stop.

Please feel free to comment on something I missed out on.
ChevyNova1970.

You keep mentioning that a weapon is a determining factor, you forget about disparity of force. Little old man/woman attacked by a 20 something punk? 20 something fit young man attacked by 2-3 other fit young men? Both are examples of disparity of force.

For the fist fight there are a lot more variables, including if it is mutual combat, and if it started as such whether the person doing the shooting made an attempt at withdrawing from said mutual combat. Also it doesn't have to be near death, just a reasonable belief that the person is in immediate danger of serious bodily injury or death. You listed quite a few examples of serious bodily injury that don't include near death above.

Shooting someone in the back is never legal? Are you sure on that? Guy is in my house unlawfully I yell at him rather than shoot because I don't want to have to deal with the bloodstains , he takes off down the hall towards my daughters room and not the door? Or as in the shooting a gas station robber in the back? I'm pretty sure that second one has happened in IN and has been found to be a justifiable shoot. It could have been a pharmacy though.

Just drawing your firearm is legal, heck I can walk down the street with a pistol in my hand and be perfectly legal. Now pointing it may or may not be. Per IC pointing a firearm is a crime, with some exceptions. For instance one of them is when a person is legally allowed to use reasonable force. Another factor in it is what is said. Case in point, two guys driving down the road screaming and gesturing at each other through closed windows, guy b pulls a pistol and holds it up in the air and wiggles it around. He was found not guilty because he didn't point it and the other guy couldn't hear what he said. Another case, guy a is stopped at a stop sign/light get's out and starts talking to iirc a panhandler. Guy b stuck behind him honks and the other guy flips him off. Guy b gets out of his car and guy a lifts up his shirt pats his pistol and said "Don't even think about it buddy" guy a was found guilty of intimidation with a deadly weapon. Im sure it didn't hurt/help that guy b was an off duty officer though.

I've been doing this for 20 years. 1) No such thing as a simple legal aspect, 2) the answer is always "it depends".

Jmills, what i mean by "all justified shootings are forcible felonies" is that the criminal or suspect is the one committing a forcible felony. Justified shootings take place because of someone reacting to a forcible felony. These forcible felonies acts are life threatening, the criminal is trying to cause serious bodily injury to someone or death. That's when we see the good guy respond and he shoots to stop the threat of this. A justified shooting.

See Kirk's post above. There is a case that I know of where a guy was shot and survived, the shooter went to prison. When he got out he ran into the guy at a fest in the local park. He made comments about how he was going to get him later, and then reached into his jacket. The guy drew, shot and killed him. The only thing the guy had in his jacket pocket was a pack of cigarettes. Ind Ct of appeals or Supreme court (can't remember which) over turned his guilty verdict and found that he had a reasonable belief of serious bodily injury/death.

Thank you a lot sir! I know it does hurt to be limited to what we can do as firearm owners in protecting ourselves. I spent about a day or so writing this and revising it so I don't get flamed too bad from everyone who reads it. This is a hard topic to inform people about and I know some people will not agree with it. But, it does stir up the pot and promote discussion. That's what INGO is about! Thanks again sir, I appreciated this reply!

Not trying to flame you, but perhaps that day or so writing this could have been better spent at something like Guy Relford's Indiana firearm laws class. Course Descriptions
Or reading Bryan Ciyou's book, comprehensive Indiana gun laws.
Indiana Gun Laws | Indiana Firearm Laws | Reference Manual Although I believe he has a more recent edition (2013 iirc).

As per the Teuller drill, 21 feet represent a reaction time of 1.5 seconds. 50 feet would be a bit more than 3 seconds. So, I would say that it depends. If someone is running at you with a knife, threatening to kill you, there is no reason that 50 feet is absolutely unreasonable. I would rely on ability, opportunity, and jeopardy to make the decision.

I don't see these stipulations specifically in the IC (35-41-3-2(d)):

A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force,against any other person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to preventor terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on theperson's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.

What is required is a reasonable belief that the deadly force was necessary to terminate the unlawful entry.

Don't forget curtilage. My unattached garage 15 ft from my house inside my fenced in back yard with the no trespassing signs on the gates. Would most likely fall under that, but it is not my dwelling.

My question is about theft of property. I take it ,I can use my weapon to assist me stopping theft of my property as I say " Sir please put my weed eater back in my truck" , But I can not pull the trigger unless I'm attacked? If the good gentleman doesn't return the weed eater AND decides to run ... I'm supposed to wave at him & head to the store to replace that weed eater ? So no way a variation of Castle doctrine can't work with your truck on a public street?

Unfortunately you are correct. Unless you are occupying your vehicle at the time and the person is attacking it. Just being in your truck and the guy grabs with weed eater out of the back and starts running? No bueno. Guy grabs the weed eater and starts bashing your truck/windows? Possibly bueno.

 

[2A_Tom]

OP you hit Ingo on a very good day. You didn't want to get flamed too badly, and you didn't.

But I agree. Bwahahaha!

You really got a pass. The thing that set me off was you stating that you were not going to post IC.

This is exactly what I find with many who will confront citizens they work from memory or opinion.

Thanks to one of our INGO officers who know better, Phlydog, for posting IC because that is all that counts in Indiana.

 

[chipbennett]

Don't forget curtilage. My unattached garage 15 ft from my house inside my fenced in back yard with the no trespassing signs on the gates. Would most likely fall under that, but it is not my dwelling.

IIRC from when I read the IC yesterday, curtilage is covered under a separate subsection - (e) perhaps? - and required use of deadly force to meet the justifications previously listed under subsection (c). So the Castle Doctrine doesn't apply the same way. (IANAL)

 

[rhino]

IIRC from when I read the IC yesterday, curtilage is covered under a separate subsection - (e) perhaps? - and required use of deadly force to meet the justifications previously listed under subsection (c). So the Castle Doctrine doesn't apply the same way. (IANAL)

How dare you attempt to curtail my curtilage!

 

[chipbennett]

How dare you attempt to curtail my curtilage!

Don't get curt with me!

 

[rhino]

Well played, sir.

 

[TaunTaun]

okay, an important question here. I have discussed this with a couple LEO's on occasion...

What is the proper pronunciation of curtilage?

Is it: Ker-tail-age?
Is it: Kert-i-ledge?

Another way of pronouncing it?

 

[eldirector]

okay, an important question here. I have discussed this with a couple LEO's on occasion...

What is the proper pronunciation of curtilage?

Is it: Ker-tail-age?
Is it: Kert-i-ledge?

Another way of pronouncing it?

cur·ti·lage
ˈkərtl-ij/
noun: curtilage; plural noun: curtilages

• an area of land attached to a house and forming one enclosure with it.
  "the roads within the curtilage of the development site"
  
  

 

[T.Lex]

cur·ti·lage
ˈkərtl-ij/

Yeah - this. Accent on the first syllable. Kurt-i-lij.

 

[2A_Tom]

IIRC from when I read the IC yesterday, curtilage is covered under a separate subsection - (e) perhaps? - and required use of deadly force to meet the justifications previously listed under subsection (c). So the Castle Doctrine doesn't apply the same way. (IANAL)

What is this castle doctrine people keep mentioning? What is the IC?

 

[2A_Tom]

BTW who the heck is curt?

 

[rhino]

I think I tore the curtilage in my knee.

 

[Turf Doctor]

I get into a fist fight and I shoot the guy. Will I get in trouble?

So it is best that I wait until I have been beaten to a pulp and since I'm near death my ability to think is impaired it is at that time that I have to decide to draw and shoot? Wow

Just a little information regarding a fight.
Going To Jail For Defending Yourself