Kids

[NIFT]

Inaccessibility and education are not mutually exclusive, contrary to what a number of people, here, seem to profess.

There, also, appears to be a fair exhibition of the Dunning-Kruger effect on the subject of kids and guns, every time it comes up.

 

[CitiusFortius]

My best suggestion would be to immerse your kids as deeply as possible in gun usage and safety.

Not sure how well this logic will work on the 16 month old...

 

[Rookie]

Not sure how well this logic will work on the 16 month old...

And yet, they are old enough to learn that fire burns.

 

[the1kidd03]

I dont believe there is a blanket answer. I think you have to have the open mind to honestly evaluate whether the kids in YOUR life can be trusted to handle these situations. I think every kid is different. My oldest is 4... and honestly I right now cannot say I'd trust him to leave a loaded gun alone, no matter what we said or did.
Indeed. A child's ability is for each parent to judge whether or not they are physically and psychologically capable of safely handling and learning about firearms. Starting that education while IN the parent's presence however, cannot hurt at any age. Until they are trustworthy, guns should remain locked up out of their means to access but that's NO excuse to not begin the education. If not granting the opportunity to educate, there is not way to accurately evaluate their ability and willingness to learn.

You mentioned a nephew, not a child... a child you are not around 100% of the time I assume? That, like most kids, is probably on better behavior around you than his parents? There are a lot of variables when it's your kids. They have friends over, they have birthday parties, and sometimes curiosity just gets the better of them. Even 'perfect' kids can make bad decisions. To not have your guns locked up with littleones around is taking a risk (and a risk is defined by both impact and probability. The impact is obvious, you have to be comfortable with the probability for your situation).
Whether he's truly my child or not makes little difference. His father and I are so close and like minded that there's little difference. I'm around his son nearly as much as he is. I've also trained MANY kids over the years and continue to do so. Age is merely a number and in no way an indication of their abilities. If the child is taught firearms safety, respect, discipline, etc. they wouldn't try to show or fondle a gun when they know they're not supposed to. Everyone has different levels of these things however and that can have a dramatic effect on a child's psychological state and abilities. Regardless, guns remain locked up until they have adequately proven themselves to the parent's level of comfort.

I let my oldest littleone (pre-K) dryfire with me, I get the guns out anytime he asks, and we talk about safety rules and NEVER touching a gun w/o me around (and running to an adult like a teacher or another mom/dad). Has it sunk in? Dunno, sometimes I think I might as well be talking to our cat... but that's kids for you.
Not to say that this is you, but I see too often that parents push TOO hard for what they want their children to do/learn. When they loose interest, let it go. When that interest peaks again, take advantage of it and don't go overboard in education. Make it fun. On the surface it sounds like you're doing an excellent job, but I've learned in working with many parents that they often have misconceptions of how they're handling the particular situation(s) and don't realize the full gravity of how their actions interact with the child's psychology. Children naturally WANT their parent's approval. They SEEK to perform well. Likewise, parent's want to see them do well. That can be a dangerous mix due to pressure though. Leading to parents trying or pushing TOO hard.

Even when they get older, I always say that even if your child is perfect, remember that every group of friends has a Michael Kelso ("70's Show" reference) who will be in your house when you're not home.

And the answers are not black and white either (eg "In a safe" -or- "under the pillow"). You can have them in a safe until you go to bed, then open the safe and close it back up in the am, for example.
Excellent suggestions/points. Always locked up when you're not present or on your body. Other than that, they shouldn't be accessible to anyone but those who you know can be trusted.

-rvb

responses in RED above

Indeed there are never black and white answers in life. I only speak from my experience of training numerous kids over the years and having learned myself from a very early age, while studying several human sciences in relation to my fields (sociology, psychology, anthropology, etc).

 

[rvb]

And yet, they are old enough to learn that fire burns.

usually after touching it.

please don't make me post home movies of our daughter's first b-day where she touched the candle...

-rvb

 

[Rookie]

Do what you want. The fact is, remove the mystery from an inanimate object and it becomes no more exciting than any other object.

 

[Double T]

Our 4 year does not point his toy firearms at people, only at a hanging target I have in the living room.

Our 2 year points them at everyone.


Each child is different. What worked for my oldest is not working for my 2 year old.

Our guns are locked up unless they are on my hip, and the kids can't access them. When they get older, the safe will probably have to be upgraded, or I hope I can trust them enough to not have to worry about it.

 

[rvb]

responses in RED above

Indeed there are never black and white answers in life. I only speak from my experience of training numerous kids over the years and having learned myself from a very early age, while studying several human sciences in relation to my fields (sociology, psychology, anthropology, etc).

I think we are mostly in agreement. The one point you didn't address (and maybe I didn't make clear/strong enough) is that with kids there are often OTHER kids in your house (including when you aren't there), that you didn't raise or teach. And that's true from toddler to college. And if you keep the guns unsecured, those kids may very well be into things they aren't supposed to. These are often the stories you hear on the news where little Tiny Timmy goes to his friend's house, finds his friend's father's firearm, and then there is a funeral. The "education only" crowd never seem to address kids they didn't raise/educate.

And I get my kids interested not by pushing, but getting the guns out myself and letting him get interested in what I'm doing. Then it becomes all about letting him "play" and the teaching moments that happen. And during those times I can guage his ability to follow the safety rules and follow directions as an indicator of when he's ready to go to the range with me.... we aren't there yet!

-rvb

 

[TTravis]

Having guns around kids is a healthy part of their growing up. They learn respect, safety, and self confidence.

The key point is that worked for me is you need to feed their curiosity in a constructive way. My girls did not have much interest in them, but the boy sure did. At 4 he got his first BB gun that provided a great opportunity to learn about basic gun safety. We spent a lot of afternoons together shooting targets and such in the back yard. At 6, I introduced him to a .22 rifle and we did a lot more shooting and learned to take care of it. He realised that I had my guns and he had his. I think at some point, I let him shoot a .38 and he decided for himself he was not ready for that. By 10, he had a .410 to call his own that we kept in the safe, but it was his. At 12, I got a bird dog and he and I took the Hunterr Safety Course together. That was the year he killed his first pheasant with his 20 gage youth 870. Now that he is 16, he can hunt better than most of us, and he knows where all the guns and safe keys are hidden around the house. He knows I have a LTCH and looks forward to getting one at 18.

My kids and family have never felt insecure in our house or on our property because of guns. My son's being around guns has given him a lot of self confidence and maturity beyond his years. I trust him completely.

 

[the1kidd03]

I think we are mostly in agreement. The one point you didn't address (and maybe I didn't make clear/strong enough) is that with kids there are often OTHER kids in your house (including when you aren't there), that you didn't raise or teach. And that's true from toddler to college. And if you keep the guns unsecured, those kids may very well be into things they aren't supposed to. These are often the stories you hear on the news where little Tiny Timmy goes to his friend's house, finds his friend's father's firearm, and then there is a funeral. At least once per week, if not more, while I am at work, there are other kids running around my house. My wife's there, as often are the other kid's parents, but kids can disapear quick.

And I get my kids interested not by pushing, but getting the guns out myself and letting him get interested in what I'm doing. Then it becomes all about letting him "play" and the teaching moments that happen. And during those times I can guage his ability to follow the safety rules and follow directions as an indicator of when he's ready to go to the range with me.... we aren't there yet!

-rvb

Indeed. Which is why I pointed out, just as NIFT said, that when not in your presence they should be secured. Access to and education are not mutually exclusive.

 

[WyldeShot]

I have a 4 year old and a 1 year old. I have a small locking safe that I don't use. Right now if my firearm is not on me it is put up where they cannot get it. I am sure that I will have to do something in the future. I have heard several bad reviews on the biometric safes.

One thing that I do is I OC and my 4 year old son asks about it. I have talked to him about what he should do if he sees a gun out. I also test him every once in awhile by placing a unloaded pistol on the table. I often rotate them since they look different. So far, he has always came to get me or my wife to tell us a gun is out.

Like someone else said, I knew where every gun was in my parents house and I did not mess with them. Education!!

 

[squidvt]

I have found with my son (4), that making sure the rules are well defined and immutable. I also have found his curiosity is endless and every topic.

This blog post has been helpful with teaching him safety around firearms and disarming his curiosity.

 

[TTravis]

I always found it interesting, with my kids growing up, all the times teachers and pediatricians who tried to find out whether or not we had guns in the house. I taught my kids to refer those questions to me but they never would ask me!

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Off topic, but I'm glad I don't have to worry about this yet... right now, guns just laying around on desks and tables at my place :P

 

[88GT]

I truly do see your point and for the most part agree with the basis of it. Kids these days need to be taught respect. I too knew better than to touch a gun unsupervised when i was young.

But unfortunately I have seen personally what happens when a moronic uncle leaves a H&R 12ga in his closet where his 13yr old son gets ahold of it and shoots his 6 yr old brother in the neck and kills him. Supposedly nobody knows where the shell came from....Uncle claimed it was not loaded.
I was first in the family to arrive at St. Mary's Hospital (Decatur, Illinois). It was already too late. I was the "man" when all the women of the family came into the room to say goodbye. I also got to be the one that had to quickly reposition the sheet so it did not uncover what was left of his left side of his neck. I also got to be the one to help strip the parent's bedroom (where it happened) of all the carpet and bird shot filled dresser and repair holes in the wall.
Trust me people, I do not wish any of that on anyone. My aunt and uncle are still to this day a trainwreck.
So where do we all go from here? Take a chance that "our kids" or maybe even "other peoples kids" understand respect and hope that they do but not ever know for sure and keep our loaded pistol in easily accessible places unlocked to get obviously very needed additional seconds for reaction to a life/death situation OR do we lock them up in some form or fashion (trigger lock, safe, vault, etc.)? If you are wrong and a kid gets ahold of a unlocked gun, most states say YOU goto jail. I doubt I need to mention that "you" will also have a dead child on your conscience for the rest of "your" life.

So if mods want to move this to its own thread, I welcome it. I really would like to hear members thoughts and practices when children are in the home.

BTW...here is the Obit

Adam Tyler Gilbert
Moweaqua
Adam Tyler Gilbert, 6, of Moweaqua, died at 5:23 p.m. on Friday, August 17, 2001 in St. Mary's Hospital, Decatur.
Funeral services will be at 3 p.m. on Tuesday, August 21 in Seitz Funeral Home, Moweaqua with visitation from 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. Tuesday. Burial will be in Westside Cemetery, Moweaqua. Memorials may be made to Moweaqua Ambulance Service and Gregory Elementary School.
Adam was born in Decatur, IL on March 2, 1995, the son of Ralph and Diana Martin Gilbert. He was a student at Gregory Elementary School where he would be entering the First Grade.
Adam is survived by his parents, his brother Randy and sister Pamela at home and his grandparents James and Barbara Epps, Findlay; Ron and Jan McGregor, Pana; Charles and Debbie Martin, Stoney Creek, North Carolina; great grandmothers Mabel Wenke, Wichita, Kansas and Louis Brown, Osyka, Mississippi.

I'm sorry for the loss, but I don't see this as a argument for locking up every gun in every household. If someone wants to take the added step of locking up, more power to him. But scores of households raised children with un-safed firearms without incident. I don't think locks are necessary until they're necessary, and only the family can make that determination for themselves.

 

[Nazgul]

Gun Valt

I use a finger pad gunvault. My kids are adults but have grand kids over often.

Don

 

[sarlakk]

I find myself agreeing with some of the above posters, and thinking that the combination of firearm education and inaccessibility would be the route I would take, when/if I have children in my household. The biggest reasoning that I have for agreeing with this is the turbulence that arises from adolescent hormones, and how easily it can cloud even the most diligent one's decision making. Granted, these thoughts may change if/when I have children

 

[Molly Belle]

I second the link that squidvt posted above. Disarming Kids’ Curiosity | Cornered Cat

Also, on the education side, check out Eddie the Eagle.
Eddie Eagle GunSafe|Eddie Eagle GunSafe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIEBrb_wRYc
Our local library had the video, and it really helped my oldest daughter remember the rules.
Stop.
Don't Touch.
Leave the Area.
Find an Adult.

In fact, we were visiting a home and there were a bunch of long guns behind the door in the room we were in. She noticed them before I did. She froze and said "Mommy, we need to leave here and tell an adult."
Kids are smart, but you still have to be careful.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The use of safes coming into vogue is a relatively new phenomenon. One wonders how the gun-owning population managed to raise surviving children for the first 200+ years of the nation's existence.

 

[CTS]

I remember when I was a teenager, my parents had a lot of trust in me. I never did anything to give them a reason not to trust me and that afforded me quite a bit of freedom at an early age, particularly once I began driving. I was very grateful for my parents trust, because it gave me every chance in the world to go out and do whatever I wanted and generally get away with it. I guess I can't say I was too bad (never got involved with alcohol/drugs) of any sort but I definitely did some things that were relatively unsafe, looking back I feel pretty fortunate.

The bottom line is that you simply do not know your children as well as you think you do and even great kids who have never been in any kind of trouble before can get pressured into doing something stupid...like borrow Dad's gun to show to the guys, who will then proceed to insist on getting to shoot it without the benefit of instruction like your child has had. If you say your kid is incapable of doing something like that, I think you're just not being honest with yourself. I don't know a single person who doesn't cringe at the remembrance of some of their behavior during their adolescence. Get indignant all you want, I hope the odds play out in your favor and no one gets hurt/killed over your decision....and while it's a distant second...that the rest of the gun community doesn't pay for your mistake via a law named after your kid.

Obviously unless the time is never, there will come a day when a child will become a young adult and be capable of a higher level of trust, but I plan to take the Ronald Reagan approach: "Trust but verify." It only takes one bad decision to undo a thousand good ones.