Larry Vickers on Glocks

[Disposable Heart]

Because I have college bills to pay. I have a sick stepmother whose mortgage I have to pay. My personal priorities straight? I certainly think they are. Sorry I cant own any class three stuff, but hey, I make due with what I have.

I apologize for the thread jack, I wanted to air my OPINION on the matter, however, opinions apparently = personal attacks, as everyone here seems to take is as such.

Once again, I apologize for my behavior and will take responsibility for my actions in as such.

 

[abnk]

Revolvers, if you chosen CCW is a revolver, then by all means use it in a class, most instructors can accomodate a wheel gun in their class.

Sheriff Campbell actually covers the revolver even if none of the students brought one.

 

[shooter521]

What Im simply saying is that with regards to Lars comment about students feeling successful and coming back for continued business is different from learning good concepts, shot placement, point shooting, and proper drawing, not to mention retention.

Those "instructors" who wanted their students to "feel successful," are, IMO, idiots. A good instructor will ensure that his students ARE successful, regardless of how they "feel". Some of the most valuable training I've ever gotten was in a course that totally kicked my ass, both physically and mentally. Really got me out of my comfort zone and made me question my own abilities.

They seem to want to cram it all in three days and leave the student high and dry. Any follow up on students that doesnt consist of another couple hundred dollars of "advanced" training?

After you took Driver's Ed, did the instructor follow up with you? If not, how did you continue to build and perfect your driving skills, and make sure you were doing it right? There are ways to practice and ensure your form is good. Videotape yourself at the range and review the footage with a critical eye. Better yet, have a "training buddy" and go to the range together so you can coach and critique each other (see previous comment about roping buddies into attending courses with you). I hardly ever shoot by myself anymore, and as a result, I get more out of my practice sessions and I don't reinforce bad habits.

I see alot of guys that go to Funsite or similar, and come back thinking they are top notch.

I've seen that too. But that's their error, not the fault of the trainer.

people are hung up on what class to take or what school to go to, not to mention what weapon to use, what accessories they should tack on, etc...

I don't see anyone in this thread (even the original comments from Mr. Vickers) being "hung up" on anything. Folks are just giving their opinions and recommendations based on their experience. Nothing wrong with that.

I get ridiculed because I dont have a 16" barreled, chrome lined uber-AR,

Where or by whom have you been ridiculed, and more importantly why do you give a crap what anyone else thinks about your gear? If it works for you, rock it out!

my AR has functioned with now over 750 rounds without cleaning

That's a good start, but the overall firing schedule is more telling than a simple round count (i.e. 1200 rounds over 3 days is harsher on the gun than 1200 rounds over 3 years). And given that there are many, many documented accounts of ARs going for *several thousand* rounds with minimal cleaning/maintenance, I'm not exactly shocked.

I think people need to look to themselves to determine what training and equipment they NEED

Absolutely. "The mission drives the gear train" not the other way around.

train hard and determine the style of fighting that suits them, not a syllabused method used over and over, not conforming to a student's needs.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with that comment, but I would suggest that "training hard" involves sampling a variety of professional instructors/courses/methods (as opposed to just going to the range with your buddy the beat cop, or a relative who "has been shooting all his life" - they will only get you so far), selecting the TTPs that work best for your needs, then practicing and reinforcing them on your own while periodically going back for additional professional training on a sustainment/refresher basis.

Incidentally, what ever happened to revolver fighting instruction? Not meerly defending one's self with a J-frame, but how to FIGHT with a 6 gun (so many service guns out there)?

I have yet to see a handgun course that requires students to use a semi-auto.

People throw money to become better fighters, however, become tacticool troops that believe since they've had three days instruction that they can now go into any situation and come out alive. They believe range time is a method of training

I think your preconceptions and unfounded generalizations are clouding your view. I will ask again, have you ever taken any professional firearms instruction?. If not, how can you possibly know what the experience is like, or what students or instructors "believe"?

I respect others opinions here, however, I would like if some would grant me the same liberty.

You are welcome to your opinion, but to me it appears to have no basis in fact, so I will continue to disagree with you.

 

[bigcraig]

Because I have college bills to pay. I have a sick stepmother whose mortgage I have to pay. My personal priorities straight? I certainly think they are. Sorry I cant own any class three stuff, but hey, I make due with what I have.

I apologize for the thread jack, I wanted to air my OPINION on the matter, however, opinions apparently = personal attacks, as everyone here seems to take is as such.

Once again, I apologize for my behavior and will take responsibility for my actions in as such.

Sigh, young man you carry your heart on your sleave and are easily offended, nobody here as attacked you.

At this time in your life, taking a firearms class may not be feesible, and that is OK.

But in the future learn to not make judgements on subjects that you know nothing about, this advice works for all things in life.

The fact that you yourself are an admitted Democrat shows that you have a sense of entitlement, the world owes you nothing, plan accordingly.

I also apologize for the high-jack.

 

[Disposable Heart]

I have some basis in fact as I get to watch these guys that have had training shooting at our range. Many are very good shots (Steve is an awesome good shot, has taken classes, I would not want to be against him in any case, and if he has something to tell me, I listen). What I meerly state is that one doesnt have to go through a training program or have super crazy guns/parts to be a good fighter. Personal training and practice will trump classes in ANY situation. Classes will add to a repertiore, however, if one is not a good shooter to begin with, they will not add much to their arsenal of knowledge. However, it seems that with classes, many of the poorer shots believe that their skills are magnified in any substantial amount.

That is all I have to say.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Sigh, young man you carry your heart on your sleave and are easily offended, nobody here as attacked you.

At this time in your life, taking a firearms class may not be feesible, and that is OK.

But in the future learn to not make judgements on subjects that you know nothing about, this advice works for all things in life.

The fact that you yourself are an admitted Democrat shows that you have a sense of entitlement, the world owes you nothing, plan accordingly.

I also apologize for the high-jack.

I actually appreciate that. Ive had to work for everything I have, so that part of the Democrat in me doesnt pop up much. I admit there is a lot to learn about life in general. I am only stating what I have seen and learned so far.

 

[Glock Lover]

I have some basis in fact as I get to watch these guys that have had training shooting at our range. Many are very good shots (Steve is an awesome good shot, has taken classes, I would not want to be against him in any case, and if he has something to tell me, I listen). What I meerly state is that one doesnt have to go through a training program or have super crazy guns/parts to be a good fighter. Personal training and practice will trump classes in ANY situation. Classes will add to a repertiore, however, if one is not a good shooter to begin with, they will not add much to their arsenal of knowledge. However, it seems that with classes, many of the poorer shots believe that their skills are magnified in any substantial amount.

That is all I have to say.

I agree with that.

 

[bigcraig]

DH, knowing good "tactics" can help win a battle, even if the shooter isn't a great shot.

I am having a personal struggle with my pistol shooting right now due to not enough practice and "gaming" with a different firearm platform (1911). So, I am on a self imposed mission to only shoot my CCW guns, all Glocks. Until I am back where I need to be with my pistol shooting all my other guns are collecting dust, except my GO-TO AR as it is just as important tool in my home defense plan.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Craig, funny thing. I am the opposite. My rifle skills (if any) have degenerated into poop!

 

[shooter521]

What I meerly state is that one doesnt have to go through a training program or have super crazy guns/parts to be a good fighter.

What is a "good fighter" and how do you know if someone is or not? I don't know if I am a good fighter, because I've never been in a fight. And I hope to keep it that way!

Classes will add to a repertiore, however, if one is not a good shooter to begin with, they will not add much to their arsenal of knowledge.

I've learned a TON of stuff in classes that had squat to do with *shooting*. Mindset, tactics, movement, technical information, you name it. All of those things helped me to be a more effective, if not more technically proficient, shooter. Get the distinction there?

However, it seems that with classes, many of the poorer shots believe that their skills are magnified in any substantial amount.

Again, not having taken any professional courses, how can you possibly know this? By the guys you see at the range or by what you surmise by reading on the internet? Over any given multi-day course, the difference in skill levels - as recorded on scored courses of fire - between the novice shooters and the more experienced will be less on the last day than it was on the first. That means the new guys are learning and improving by a quantifiable measure. Period.

That is all I have to say.

 

[TomN]

I've learned a TON of stuff in classes that had squat to do with *shooting*. Mindset, tactics, movement, technical information, you name it. All of those things helped me to be a more effective, if not more technically proficient, shooter. Get the distinction there?

Best post of the day, right there!

 

[obijohn]

Best post of the day, right there!

what he said +1